Why I am Opposed To Immigration
- Thread starter Zardnaar
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metalhead
Angry Bartender
- Joined
- Apr 15, 2002
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This is most certainly not true.
Lexicus
Deity
It might take a few generations, but it can work.
Hygro
soundcloud.com/hygro/
Human values are shaped by everything, laws being a non-trivial source of values. There are many ways a person might defer to the law such that the law drives their cultural values.
Those ways aren't going to produce a universal obedience to any committee that issues a proclamation. The UN reply wasn't you talking past me, it was you telling me what you understand.
Those ways aren't going to produce a universal obedience to any committee that issues a proclamation. The UN reply wasn't you talking past me, it was you telling me what you understand.
MagisterCultuum
Great Sage
You can make some people value things based on nothing more than passing statutes, but there is something seriously wrong with that demographic.
metalhead
Angry Bartender
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Statutes aren't passed in a vacuum. They serve to codify values into actionable law, which certainly makes them informative in terms of what a given society's norms are.
Some people talk as if the U.S. constitution is the only credible source for our society's values. So I'm gonna have to call extreme ignorance on anyone who thinks laws can't shape people's values.
Some people talk as if the U.S. constitution is the only credible source for our society's values. So I'm gonna have to call extreme ignorance on anyone who thinks laws can't shape people's values.
Well, look at people on (say) marijuana and alcohol. There can be people who very much feel that it's okay to have legal alcohol but that it's absolutely immoral to smoke weed. And they absolutely don't want it legalized.
How much of this attitude is due to statutes? If alcohol were illegal, where would these people stand? If marijuana were legal, where would they stand?
I mean, there's a small cultural difference between marijuana and alcohol, but c'mon, not that much. A heavy cause of the difference is due simply to statutes.
How much of this attitude is due to statutes? If alcohol were illegal, where would these people stand? If marijuana were legal, where would they stand?
I mean, there's a small cultural difference between marijuana and alcohol, but c'mon, not that much. A heavy cause of the difference is due simply to statutes.
Traitorfish
The Tighnahulish Kid
Such as, for example, giving them a parliament and abortion rights?
Sorry for the late reply, got hung up on Stellaris and meatworld issues.
I'd like counterexamples then.
Yeah, but I'm talking about deeply held values. Very few Americans are going to agree that abolishing Congress and giving its powers to the Presidency is fine even if the Supreme Court unanimously agrees to that.
What 'things' are you talking about here? I think the focus on human liberty and rationality produced by the modern West made stuff like the trans movement or New Atheism inevitable. And I've seen religious people argue that if someone cheated on their spouse they shouldn't be trusted in business dealings either due to their history of breaching contract. The dissonance is created by holding contradictory beliefs and values.
The former won't do anything, the latter will have an effect but a very bad one.
I'd like counterexamples then.
Yeah, but I'm talking about deeply held values. Very few Americans are going to agree that abolishing Congress and giving its powers to the Presidency is fine even if the Supreme Court unanimously agrees to that.
What 'things' are you talking about here? I think the focus on human liberty and rationality produced by the modern West made stuff like the trans movement or New Atheism inevitable. And I've seen religious people argue that if someone cheated on their spouse they shouldn't be trusted in business dealings either due to their history of breaching contract. The dissonance is created by holding contradictory beliefs and values.
The former won't do anything, the latter will have an effect but a very bad one.
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Traitorfish
The Tighnahulish Kid
Ah, so we must do something, as long as that something is nothing. Very zen.
Lexicus
Deity
That's not how that works
No, it's not. Both Congress and the president are bound by the constitution, and any laws (or executive decrees) they may sign must be in accordance with that selfsame constitution. Theoretically, of course, both branches may alter the constitution to the effect that there's no more Congress and only a president, but what Congress will abolish itself? And then, of course, there's still the safeguard of the judiciary (ultimately the Supreme Court) to judge whether such fundamental law changes are actually in accordance with the constitution. It would take a very extreme situation (and the US have had a few, but this has never come up) to effectuate such a major change in US law.
I think Mouthwash has a point - to use an obvious example, people wouldn't automatically stop thinking that slavery was wrong if the government accidentally repealed the laws against it. But it works the other way, too. When they first banned caning in schools, a lot of people saw it as the state overreaching and banning something perfectly harmless - you'd struggle to find people nowadays saying that it should be legal. It's partly that the law follows public opinion, but also that the law creates a sense of right and wrong, and so also shapes it. As with many of these things, the relationship isn't straightforward.
Which is why I'm not actually claiming this is something that could happen.
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Ireland has had a remarkably similar path.
3.4 million in 1981 to 4.7 now, with about one quarter of the area, most people living in or around Dublin, not enough houses being built.
It hasn't really turned the population against immigration. Any frustration seems to be directed at whoever happens to be in power's inability to plan for and provide services.
Well, in the Netherlands there has been a housing problem since around 1945. Despite emigration (government supported) and immigration (also government supported) it has never been solved, but I don't have the impression 'the people' are blaming this on immigrants. (Which would be rather irrational, but then people are that.) It, of course, depends somewhat on what you consider a 'housing problem'.
I would have no problem with you claiming that though. Theoretically it's quite possible - just not very likely.
I would have no problem with you claiming that though. Theoretically it's quite possible - just not very likely.
Wow, i thought that Ireland had similar population to Greece, ie around 10 million.
Then again it has a lot more immigrants (eg to US) than Greece.We get around.Wow, i thought that Ireland had similar population to Greece, ie around 10 million.
Yep, the U.S. is infested with more Irish than Ireland.
