Why I am Opposed To Immigration

[Zardnaar]

And around about now people are likely assuming I am a Trump supporting redneck who doesn't like "them" being over here with "us".

Except I am not an American and I live in one of the least corrupt and most liberal countries on the planet. I also live in a country that is an immigrant country.

In my case I honestly do not care about where the immigrants come from. The problem is we have to many of them. Nor do I care about illegal immigration or refugees. We could cut legal immigration in half and double our refugee quota which would cost several tens of millions of dollars ($80 000 per refugee). Which in the grand scheme of things is a few hours of government spending here.

Last year
https://www.enz.org/migrants.html

In 2003 we hit 4 million people. Now we have 4.7 million.

We are also having a housing crisis here. Put simply in our largest city house prices have hit an average of 1 million dollars or around 10-12 years wages for an average household (two people working).

https://www.nbr.co.nz/article/book-extract-home-truths-–-confronting-new-zealand’s-housing-crisis-183320

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11736277

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11743228

Now this is made worse by NZ not having a capital gains tax and houses have been going up in price 10-20% per year in some places.

We actually own our house and will have the mortgage paid in around 3 years. We bought the house in 2010 and it has gone up by at least 50% going by the houses that have sold. Now generally you just have to wait for the housing bubble to burst right?

Wrong NZ has a perfect storm of finite houses and to much immigration. House prices increases may fall to 5% increase per year or even 0% but they are not going to go down.

We are heading towards an inter generational landed aristocracy here though, our parents could by a house at around 3 times their yearly income and got free doctor, dentist, university but that started to go away in the 1980's. The older people have way more wealth though if you want to check the links.

Note I am not a socialist I do not care that doctors etc get paid more than me but the baby boomers have not worked any harder or smarter just got born at the right time. We are generation X/Y and we're getting it easier than the millennials.

Once our mortgage is paid for we only have to pay rates instead of rent/mortgage and rent locally is around $350+ per week, our rates will be a fraction of that, we can use the extra money to buy another house even at inflated prices. No point investing in the stock market, more likely we will take a small mortage and go buy a lot nicer house somewhere. We did not do anything that drastic just saved for 5 years, used a 20% deposit and lived like students almost during those 5 years not even running a car (double income, no kids, lived in a bit of a dump, had flatmates/room mates). Did not work any harder or smarter.

We have younger friends some of which are on 6 figure incomes and they can save $50 000 per year but in Auckland houses are going up at least 10% per year.

Down here the average and median wage is not even 50k per year but you are still looking at 300k+ for entry level housing.

Most of the arrivals are from Asia, not many are leaving though and you can turn a student visa into a work visa so basic supply and demand kicks in terms of wages. Get a low paying job and upgrade your way to residency and citizenship.

http://insights.nzherald.co.nz/article/rising-migration-numbers-nz

Guess who delivers cheap Pizza?

Put simply we are not building houses fast enough and prices won't collapse like overseas speculation. Its causing massive social problems here. Per capita we are taking in something similar to the Syrian refugees in Europe. Every year. A refugee here actually gets it easier than a normal NZer as they get a house, appliances and furnishing supplied (my wife organised the deliveries). Refugee numbers are a drop in the bucket, legal immigration is the problem here.

 

[FriendlyFire]

Sydney has been in a housing crisis for many years now and it get worse every year
Nothing wrong with halting or limiting immigration while you adjust, have a breathing space to fix the problems. But I think you'll find that housing problem come with growing population and a growing young population provides a net positive overall provided that you can absord them without hurting the economy and social fabric. Property prices will always rise it come with a growing economy and population dont worry with Trump in charge Iam sure that an economic meltdown / slow down is on the cards

 

[luiz]

I think being "against immigration" is an excessively simple-minded position that brings no good. People will always move around, it's what we do. Additionally, being opposed to all immigration makes no sense. Who would be opposed to the immigration of some rich retiree who will pay a fortune in tax, spend his money on your country and not even compete on the job market? You might argue rich retirees drive housing prices up, which is true, but the taxes they pay can be used for housing subsidies for the local poor. Additionally, even countries with high unemployment (e.g., France) still have labor shortages in some important jobs (e.g., nursing). So it makes sense to accept foreign nurses.

So immigration can be a very good thing, for everybody. But it needs to be managed. I gave the example of France, which despite its high unemployment still needs more nurses. But it doesn't need more unskilled workers, who are already way over-represented in unemployment statistics. But due to France's idiotic immigration laws, most immigrants it receives have little qualification, as they arrive via family reunification schemes (which should be completely re-designed). So France's mass of unskilled immigrants keeps attracting more unskilled immigrants in a vicious cycle, and that's why there's so much hostility to immigration in general now - because France's immigration policies suck and have harmed the country. But you won't see mainstream politicians admitting that, which drives people to the extremes.

It's a matter of designing an immigration policy that works for the locals, who are after all those whose interest the government has a duty to protect. Unfortunately, much of the debate is split in two opposing and in my view wrong extremes: the notion that immigration should not be managed (the left-wing dogma) and the notion that immigration should be stopped (the far-right rallying cry).

 

[El_Machinae]

I also wonder what examples we have of the housing crises actually resolving. In Canada, too, we've seen housing prices rise from a 3 year multiple to a 5 year multiple ... and beyond. Now, much of that rise can be attributed to the dropping of interest rates. But, even so, the portion of income being spent on rent and mortgages is rising. As a trendline, it seems unsustainable. But I don't know what happens next.

 

[Arwon]

Immigration isn't why house prices are high in Australia and New Zealand.

 

[Farm Boy]

You should be so lucky to be a redneck!

 

[El_Machinae]

Immigration isn't why house prices are high in Australia and New Zealand.

It's multi-factorial. I mean, obviously immigration will affect house prices. So, if people are worried about the relative increase in living costs, then it's important to put things in percentage terms.

 

[warpus]

Hi there, I'm an immigrant.

Explain to me again why you are opposed to me and why you want me to leave Canada and move back to Poland, and how this is going to make your mortgage cheaper

 

[Farm Boy]

I think mostly he doesn't want lots of people to move from Canada(or anywhere really) to near him, which would probably at a minimum raise rents.

Housing and development pressure, btw, most certainly does increase land prices which then increase things like property tax liability. More at 11.

 

[Recon Rover]

I am not an economist so I don't entirely understand why the rate at which immigrants are accepted does not have a relationship with the employment rate or demand for skilled labour. I guess that would partly explain my opposition to the current levels of immigration in my country.

As for housing prices being affected by immigrants... This is largely the explanation for the unaffordabilty in cities like Toronto and Vancouver. There appears to be a large funneling of foreign money (in particular from China) into real estate here. Vancouver has imposed a Foreign Home Buyer Tax to attempt to curb this. Prince Edward Island requires a term of residence to deter this behaviour (this was initially aimed against Americans in this case).

In any case, until our governments have the desire to stop the influx of foreign cash into our real estate markets our cities will suffer these affordability crises into the future.

 

[GoodEnoughForMe]

Immigration effect on housing prices pales in comparison to the artificial scarcity many cities enforce via regulations, Nimbyism, etc.

 

[Zardnaar]

I think being "against immigration" is an excessively simple-minded position that brings no good. People will always move around, it's what we do. Additionally, being opposed to all immigration makes no sense. Who would be opposed to the immigration of some rich retiree who will pay a fortune in tax, spend his money on your country and not even compete on the job market? You might argue rich retirees drive housing prices up, which is true, but the taxes they pay can be used for housing subsidies for the local poor. Additionally, even countries with high unemployment (e.g., France) still have labor shortages in some important jobs (e.g., nursing). So it makes sense to accept foreign nurses.

So immigration can be a very good thing, for everybody. But it needs to be managed. I gave the example of France, which despite its high unemployment still needs more nurses. But it doesn't need more unskilled workers, who are already way over-represented in unemployment statistics. But due to France's idiotic immigration laws, most immigrants it receives have little qualification, as they arrive via family reunification schemes (which should be completely re-designed). So France's mass of unskilled immigrants keeps attracting more unskilled immigrants in a vicious cycle, and that's why there's so much hostility to immigration in general now - because France's immigration policies suck and have harmed the country. But you won't see mainstream politicians admitting that, which drives people to the extremes.

It's a matter of designing an immigration policy that works for the locals, who are after all those whose interest the government has a duty to protect. Unfortunately, much of the debate is split in two opposing and in my view wrong extremes: the notion that immigration should not be managed (the left-wing dogma) and the notion that immigration should be stopped (the far-right rallying cry).

I said the numbers could be cut in half and I do not care where the migrants come from. Skilled migrants for albour shortages are also fine.

 

[Truronian]

In the UK the housing crisis is largely down to the reluctance from those in power to build more housing. Lots of people have money tied up in property, and these investments will plummet in value if more houses get built.

It really annoys me; being a landlord seems to be a gravy train for those lucky enough to have the capital to make such a career move. There are people growing up at the moment who may never own a house if they are unlucky and don't inherit.

 

[Zardnaar]

In the UK the housing crisis is largely down to the reluctance from those in power to build more housing. Lots of people have money tied up in property, and these investments will plummet in value if more houses get built.

It really annoys me; being a landlord seems to be a gravy train for those lucky enough to have the capital to make such a career move. There are people growing up at the moment who may never own a house if they are unlucky and don't inherit.

Something similar here. Its election year though.

 

[Perfection]

I am pro immigration because it helps stabilize the increasing top heavy age distribution of developed countries as well as stokes the fires of the tech sector. That and human freedom in general being a good thing.

I view government expendetures on immigrants to be a valuable investment, money well spent that will give good returns.

Zardnaar mentioned housing prices as a difficulty of immigration. I believe that is something we ought to tackle regardless of immigration policy.

 

[schlaufuchs]

I am pro immigration because denying people freedom of movement is inhumane.

For me it is purely a moral issue. Any (obvious) demonstrable economic benefits are merely a positive externality.

 

[Wrymouth3]

We probably shouldn't dislike people because their occupation is "delivery driver." Chances are high that person is also educated and you shouldn't look down upon them because they don't work in an office pushing papers instead.

 

[galdre]

Open borders is a great ideal but is not doable until the standard of living is roughly equivalent across the world. Until that time (if it ever occurs) countries with a better standard of living will have to have limits on immigration.

As for housing prices - I can't find the numbers right now (I'll keep looking...) but in the US the number of housing units increased over the last 4 decades faster than the population. The high housing costs in certain areas are because of the generally bad job market, where the few jobs are concentrated in a few locations, real estate speculation, and concentration of property in the hands of the few with money.

 

[luiz]

I am pro immigration because denying people freedom of movement is inhumane.

For me it is purely a moral issue. Any (obvious) demonstrable economic benefits are merely a positive externality.

Complete freedom of movement would lead to the end of nation-states, and widespread suffering and misery. It's an extremely radical position that masquerades as a moral one. But the world is not some puritanical morality play, which is why all states, including the most progressive and humanist states, limit freedom of movement of foreigners.

For me people who say "abolish all immigration restrictions" are exactly like those who say "abolish all taxes" or "abolish all governments". Not to be taken seriously, but a malevolent influence on rational debate nonetheless.

 

[schlaufuchs]

Complete freedom of movement would lead to the end of nation-states, and widespread suffering and misery. It's an extremely radical position that masquerades as a moral one. But the world is not some puritanical morality play, which is why all states, including the most progressive and humanist states, limit freedom of movement of foreigners.

For me people who say "abolish all immigration restrictions" are exactly like those who say "abolish all taxes" or "abolish all governments". Not to be taken seriously, but a malevolent influence on rational debate nonetheless.

lolk