Why is the western world declining?

[JohannaK]

It is so sad that their racism doesnt let them appreciate other genocidal states like WWI Ottomans.

 

[Arakhor]

People innately like lost causes, which goes double if it's the last gasp of an ancient tradition.

 

[Kyriakos]

Johanna is just upset that by now no one cares about lost cause Catalonia
And Arakhor is choking on his british flegm

TLDR : there is no good reason to not like the Byzantine Empire

 

[gay_Aleks]

Not everyone is interested in pale and dysfunctional imitations. I can understand Roman worship, but man, Byzzieboos confuse the hell outta me.

 

[Arakhor]

And Arakhor is choking on his british flegm

Well, it's clearly not Greek phlegm, otherwise it would have a ph.

Not everyone is interested in pale and dysfunctional imitations. I can understand Roman worship, but man, Byzzieboos confuse the hell outta me.

I'm British, so I'm raised on a proud legacy of a thousand years of history, a glittering imperial legacy and a long tradition of hating the Catholics. Byzantium is a natural fit for these prerequisites.

 

[Kyriakos]

Sometimes 99 out of 100 bulgarians are just blinded due not not liking the Byz :/

 

[Crezth]

Pictured: heroic great leader makes Constantinople great again

 

[Kyriakos]

More meh than mehmet, amirite

 

[r16]

thanks to Plotinus that ı learned the word orc used to exist , before there was a general knowledge of Turks in the West , but it does really sound good . And while the debacle of Kurds has made it directionless for like 15 seconds , one can never forget that the one above is a crime the West thinks is in the West's DNA to make pay . And why , Catalonia is the crime of the same , Kurds making it impossible for Democracy to work in Europe and all that jazz .

 

[Arent11]

I would contest the bolded part. The EU has issues and did practically everything wrong in dealing with the debt crisis, but it doesn't "lie in shambles". EU members with the most anti-EU governments -Poland and Hungary- weren't part of the union until a decade and a half a go, and weren't even part of "The West" from the late forties to the early nineties. The British always had one foot outside the door and now that they're leaving European integration seems to speed up again, with the possible creation of a common EU military.

The point is that you don't do a fusion of countries in just a few years. That is a pretty big step ahead & you should go slowly, fifty or even hundred years & be prepared to take a step
back (Brexit, breakdown of Schengen) if problems do arise. The major failure I see is the highly ideological incompetence of the people organizing this fusion. They are, in fact,
the greatest danger to the idea of a united Europe.

The breakup of "The Western Bloc".
The cracks were already showing under the Bush II administration, slightly patched over under Obama, and now America and Europe are drifting apart faster and faster. I think "The West" as a political entity is little more than an illusion right now, and soon will be history.

Sure. I don't want to rule out the possibility that political cohesion could, if a serious threat arises, again be rekindled. But right now I don't see it.

 

[Arent11]

Because the history of Christianity and Christian thought is quite a bit more pervasive and pernicious on contemporary society than Aristotle, Plato, or Beowulf are.

Owen, you sometimes bring up interesting thoughts, but you obviously "forgot" about Heisenberg, Volta, Ford, Newton, Dirac And no, stating that someone believes that the laws of nature are the will of god is not a reference to christianity, it is in fact a rejection of christianity.

 

[Arakhor]

And no, stating that someone believes that the laws of nature are the will of god is not a reference to christianity, it is in fact a rejection of christianity.

Come again?

 

[Crezth]

The reason the west is declining is due to moral weakness. The proliferation of illogical ideas - such as homosexuality, liberalism, and globalism - is ruining the foundations of western society. It is possible - and I'm just spitballing here - that a strong leader, a führer if you will - can purge the troublesome elements of society responsible for this decay and restore the dignity and power of the western world.

Just an idea.

 

[JohannaK]

Sieg heil.

 

[Arent11]

Come again?

Newton, Locke etc. were deists. The central idea of christianity is that a human being is the "son of god" and therefore has godlike qualities. Deists usually reject such
ideas.

That's why I would argue that enlightenment is not just a "continuation" of christianity. Although I know what Owen is referring to.

The reason the west is declining is due to moral weakness. The proliferation of illogical ideas.

Dictatorships are "illogical". They are highly unstable. The best example are the various socialist countries, Mao, Hitler etc.

 

[Crezth]

Yes, communist dictators such as Adolf Hitler faced several set-backs. This is because of the moral failing of communist thought. However, proper dictators such as Park Chung-hee, Francisco Franco, and Suharto ruled in times of prosperity. Meanwhile, democratic nations such as Weimar Republic Germany and Tsarist Russia succumbed to communist revolution. This is no coincidence: the natural outcome of democracy is moral decadence, and the natural outcome of moral decadence is communism. The only way this can be forestalled is by a strong reactionary assertion of moral principles.

 

[Arakhor]

Newton, Locke etc. were deists. The central idea of christianity is that a human being is the "son of god" and therefore has godlike qualities. Deists usually reject such ideas.

Actually, mainline Christianity teaches that Jesus was both entirely human and entirely divine and is thus an integral part of the Holy Trinity. Besides which, I believe that Newton was in fact a devout Christian, even if he did reject the idea of the Trinity.

 

[innonimatu]

Dictatorships are "illogical". They are highly unstable. The best example are the various socialist countries, Mao, Hitler etc.

You should know you look like an ass the moment you parrot the idea that "Hitler was a socialist".

This being the history section of the forum, I get really pissed at seeing the usual politically motivated distortions (hell, outright lies) of history for the sake of advancing current political agendas being written here. That one of the "nazis were socialists, totalitarianism bad, liberalism good" is the last refuge of some current political groups (it's either us or all those barbarians, totalitarians and populists, [name-drop suitable monsters here]). Come on, you can do better than that. I'd rather not discuss current politics here, but I may just open a new thread in off-topic to attempt to list the main current "political ideologies/groups) in action today, and their usual sound-bytes. Would make for funny discussions... if I can find the time!

 

[r16]

just we were talking about it , figuratively in a sense . What follows might not make much sense , in a typical r16 way , but bear with me ...

Spoiler :

Said West wants revenge for 1453 ? Exactly and they don't want it to happen to the hated T.C. , the official shorthand of the Turkish Republic ; Muslims and stuff were heretics and worse , before oil was discovered in places like Saudi Arabia and the Republic has to die , replaced by a new Ottoman "Empire" so that Christian obligations can be fulfilled . We being secular and not wearing a fez and speaking funny mongrelian English makes the eventual victory of the West less satisfying , though that will make no difference as we are lined for the final trip to the gas chambers . As such , NATO has a military exercise . Military exercises happen like always ; Red is the enemy side , Blue is the good side . ı was there , and stuff , when magazines disbelievingly wrote that the end of the Cold War meant the retirement of this hallowed tradition and Red and White was no more . To be replaced with Brown and Green , and we kinda immediately witnessed what this meant , with Bosnians and like the eternal embargo against Iraq , throughout the peaceful 90s .

anyhow exercises are needed for exercise and this latest one apparently revolves around the Roooshians coming back , so some idiot Norwegian civilian tech finds a picture of a bust of Atatürk . Possibly involving soldiers standing at attention in those funky Commie / WP helmets , thousands of which appeared here as Berlin sold the DDR stuff on the cheap . All those exercising officers know they will "fight" in the end , but they have to get a feeling of the countdown to war , making it somewhat automatic so that not one of them will be asking what the F-word they are doing when the real war comes , you know , out of the blue . Thus they need some background and some Norwegian officer creates a fake web account , in the name of PM , and tweets and stuff favouring the Rooooshian leader , a guy by the name of Putin . Oh , my God , Aman Allahım , as we say in Turkish ... A perfect storm , a disgrace , an insult , heinous attack against Turkey . NATO says we are the enemy ! As if we are not , but anyhow . Let's close down all NATO bases in the country , let's get out of NATO .

first things first . Kemal is the founding father of the Turkish Republic , PM became the Prime Minister and more heading a political movement that paints the PM as the founding father of New Turkey , which is patently not the Republic . The PM reportedly never said Atatürk , the father of the Turks , until this very year . The political moods required the A-K-P to send busloads of people to visit Atatürk's tomb , instead of sending the Riot Police to beat visitors a couple of years back when Irresuction in Syria just looked like winning and bringing of millions of extra Arab brothers to the rule of an expanded Turkey , that could no longer be a Republic of Turkey . Naturally we hear times change and neither Fatih -the Sultan above- or Atatürk would do what they did if they were here today . The PM came to power heading an "opinion" which is a sworn enemy of the Republic . Didn't prevent him heading Goverments in the last 15 years . Kemal wouldn't even get into the Army of Petrol , to serve the country . Why , they would give a full dose of tear gas canisters to Fatih if he attempted to enter Topkapi , his Palace .

see what NATO does ? Not only Atatürk and the PM are the "same" but acts like a wimp when "confronted" . Apologies fly in the air , both the civilian tech and the officer reportedly loose their jobs . The secretary of NATO , Stoltenberg or something , who should never utter a single word in his official capacity , like begs that this should not cause any long term effects ! As if could ever happen . Because A-K-P is now a Kemalist , nobody can dare talk in a neutral way . From Ultraright to Ultraleft , every "çakal" is out there . Exactly same as the English jackal , meaning opportunist or something , trumping NATO is evil , enemy , get of NATO and we will beat the seperatists for good . Nobody can sack us out of the Western world , because we are the Demon seed and advised by the Devil himself ; improbably "true" but a thing you will never be able to prove otherwise and we must get out by ourselves and we will see , paying for our sins , you know , like 1453 .

oh-kay . This a competition even yours idiotly must take part ? Let me see , ı got to set up the tables of equipment and such fancy military terms (ı actually have no clue about) by 2007 or something , you know , because am a fervent Panzer General player . To play in Norway you got to win a major victory in the Warsaw scenario and it's a cool thing , because Norway is a leisurely affair , you can get maximum experience for units . Each 100 points of experience you gain allows you to reinforce the unit in question with an extra health bar in Civ III terms , apart from making your unit far more deadly . It's like spectacular when your 15 strong 599 experience Panter blows 12 strong 200 experience Sherman Firefly or T-34/85 out of existance . The invasion of Norway will bear the marks of r16 , as you will see , when it happens . Not because am competing . NATO is an enemy of Turkey as proven by the Ergenekon / Balyoz conspiracies , let alone the sheninigans that used to happen even before ı was born . The now dead Turkish Armed Forces were a puppet of America and they were sacrificed willingly , intentionally , without a single voice of concern from NATO . To stop bellyaching as we were made "Moslems" once again . Me bein' an idiot , yet in the same weird Turkish language forum with has beens , actually got to whimper this would not do , outside . Along the lines of stark , brutal , naked [agression] , meaning we will handle anyone equally with invading countries and/or wiping them off the map irregardless of they joined the Coalition of the Willing to establish gas chambers in Turkey or not . That post (elsewhere on the web) immediately disappeared , despite the decade long stuff that nobody can ever understand a single word of r16 ... Because the West (while having tens of millions of rather rational people in charge) is actually governed by sissiness that assures itself that an existantial fight will not happen , because they are lunatics stuck in the Middle Ages and they will butcher their enemies , meaning us , as if sheep . This is the essential problem of the West , an idee fixee that they are the God's chosen , despite practically no one any longer believes in any Higher Powers , not a decline here or there . And this happened in 2009 , ı think .

not that we can . If this is what makes the world go round , why bother with all the technicalities , you know , making us leave NATO ? Just sack us instead of these stupid games . While we Turks might not be human beings at all , what was the crime of this "million" Arabs got killed in the Arabian Spring thing ? As the West incredibly strived to get this "fact" established that we were heathen that didn't deserve the protection of the West but liars who engineered the bloodbath . Like 6 years passed , with the West never daring to establish we were responsible for whatever transpired , yet adding new twists like everyday as if they would . Even the magnificient beardies , the equally lunatic ISIL hordes , have been properly run over and this is what the mighty West is reduced to ? Making us voluntarily leave the West , so that they can kill us . What are we to do if we stay inside West , deploy mighty morphing rangers to fight the West as it comes to stomp us ? If we can , why can't we do the same after leaving NATO ?

 

[Crezth]

Because the West (while having tens of millions of rather rational people in charge) is actually governed by sissiness that assures itself that an existantial fight will not happen , because they are lunatics stuck in the Middle Ages and they will butcher their enemies , meaning us , as if sheep . This is the essential problem of the West , an idee fixee that they are the God's chosen , despite practically no one any longer believes in any Higher Powers , not a decline here or there . And this happened in 2009 , ı think .

I'm not quite so sure about that. For many years the West was fixated on an existential crisis. Even after the Soviet Union many elements in the west are scrambling to identify a new existential enemy; the hilarious suggestion that failure to bomb Arabs would predicate Sharia law throughout the west is just one such example. I think more accurate is to say that the west is totally shielded from the consequences of warfare. A terrorist attack here and there do not the devastation of warfare make. For us it is mostly a hypothetical game of fear. The war is only real to us in pixels and newsprint, so we're free to choose whatever narrative we like the most.

In other words, we just don't care about what happens as a result of our actions, and we won't until rationing raises the prices of our hamburgers.