Why is tradition so bad?

[apocalypse105]

So basicly I played civ 5 from the beginning and I thinx there has been a few patches that allways nerved the Aristocracy patch which gave you some wonder production bonus so you actually could get some wonders at high diffiuclties


But now when I am playing emperor I rarely build wonders and going tradition and picking up artistrocracy isn't that strong at all 15% isn't a big deal 20 Is.
Allways get those free temples(Legalism)

Why do they still change this?

I thinx its really unballanced know pre patches I usally go tradition for artistocracy instead of the free great person.

Anybody else have the feeling that liberty > tradition. If I play my games I usally go for liberty allways especially on higher difficulties

 

[Camikaze]

Yes, it's not a case of tradition being bad, as liberty being very good. Tradition is still quite a solid policy selection in its own right, it's just when you're looking at the alternatives and how they shape your strategy, it's not something I would go for. There was a phase where I felt tradition was stronger than liberty, but that was patched out.

What would you do to strengthen tradition (or weaken liberty)? Is it the early settler and worker that make it overly powerful, or the promise of an eventual great person?

 

[linkai]

Actually, Tradition is quite good if you are going for a tall empire. I played one game through starting with Liberty where I played domination-style, and had about 40 cities by the time I won, and another where I played with a tall empires, had 5 cities at the end, and the second way outperformed the first, largely because of Tradition's ridiculous ability to help you grow cities more quickly, especially my capital. I think it was size 50+ at the end.

(I play at the Immortal level.)

 

[FeiLing]

only 25% production bonus on settlers/workers instead of 50% would be a good idea imho.

 

[apocalypse105]

Yes, it's not a case of tradition being bad, as liberty being very good. Tradition is still quite a solid policy selection in its own right, it's just when you're looking at the alternatives and how they shape your strategy, it's not something I would go for. There was a phase where I felt tradition was stronger than liberty, but that was patched out.

What would you do to strengthen tradition (or weaken liberty)? Is it the early settler and worker that make it overly powerful, or the promise of an eventual great person?

Well the early wonder bonus was pre patch the reason Why I went tradition now it just seams nice bonusses but compared to the liberty bonusses like you said prefer liberty...


Free worker hell yeah free settler early on yeah and top of all that a free great person

It should be traditon: free great person
and liberty growth

 

[Hammer Rabbi]

liberty is generally good for every single play style and victory condition. tradition, while good, isn't so universally beneficial. it's handy for some specific styles and certain selective benefits, but all of liberty is just generally good for every game.

a free worker, free settler, +1 culture per city founded, +1 production and a bonus to building production, a free golden age, a boost to tile improvement speeds, a cost drop on new settlers, happiness bonus to connected cities, and a free GP? it's just all very useful. no they arent absolutely necessary but i have an extremely hard time justifying passing all of them up.

your right, tradition is good but liberty is just SO much better.

 

[Glassmage]

Tradition is not bad...

 

[apocalypse105]

Tradition is not bad...

Yeah I should have changed my title why is liberty so good?

 

[Helmling]

I usually open with Tradition, grab the wonder bonus, then fill in all of liberty. How soon I go back and fill in the rest of tradition depends on the rest of the game. I always grab the free temples, but sometimes I leave the rest until the end. If I can't handle the growth spurt, happiness-wise, then I might hold off. Usually, though, it's the draw of Patronage, Rationalism, Freedom that leave the rest of tradition on the back burner. Oligarchy is a heck of a money-saver for a defensive-army, though.

 

[Knut_Are_M]

yes tradition tree is not good, the finisher however is one of the best out there.
also +15% production towards wonders is very small, and you cannot truly go tall in this game because of 2 things.
almost all happiness is local.
Growth takes forever at the larger sizes thanks to the growth formula. 1,8^n is a huge nerf to going tall!
And legalism is a tiny bonus, that comes too early.

if i can make some sugestions to makeing tradition become almost as good as liberty.
swap legalism and landed elite bonuses.
change oligarchy to +10% food.
change aristocracy to +3 happiness per wonder(both national and world wonders).

give oligarchy bonus to disipline. let warrior code give the old disipline bonus + the great general.

swap collective rule and republic bonuses.

Seriously consider changeing madate of heaven to +2 culture per specialist.

 

[apocalypse105]

yes tradition tree is not good, the finisher however is one of the best out there.
also +15% production towards wonders is very small, and you cannot truly go tall in this game because of 2 things.
almost all happiness is local.
Growth takes forever at the larger sizes thanks to the growth formula. 1,8^n is a huge nerf to going tall!
And legalism is a tiny bonus, that comes too early.

if i can make some sugestions to makeing tradition become almost as good as liberty.
swap legalism and landed elite bonuses.
change oligarchy to +10% food.
change aristocracy to +3 happiness per wonder(both national and world wonders).

give oligarchy bonus to disipline. let warrior code give the old disipline bonus + the great general.

swap collective rule and republic bonuses.

Seriously consider changeing madate of heaven to +2 culture per specialist.

The wonder bonus should really be +20 production again So you actually can consider world wonders in you'r' strategy at higher levels

 

[Ranos]

Try playing a OCC. Then Liberty is fairly useless and Tradition is pretty much a must have for the growth.

 

[Glassmage]

Tradition is useful for both vertical and horizontal strategies. Liberty is indeed a stronger choice though usually.

 

[joncnunn]

The main uses I see for Tradition are:

OCC : First tree:

non OCC Cultural : 3rd or 4th tree

For science victories, I either go after Commerce or Tradition as the second tree [interrupting for base Rationalism]

 

[Hammer Rabbi]

i think commerce sucks. my science vics are really just done with 4-5 tall cities and the trade route bonus (the only one worth anything in that tree unless you are going for a navy game) isnt worth 2 policy expenditures. tradition has some that are more valuable for certain though.

i think commerce is probably the worst all around tree, but mostly because ive never gotten deep enough to spend more than 2 slots on autocracy or order.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

The best solution to Tradition would be to switch Landed Elite with Legalism.

Because
1. you want to put Legalism off to get the best benefit out of it, so it restricts you from going for things like Monarchy
2. Landed Elite's +2 food in the Capital would be very useful early on.. possibly enough to compete with the free settler (especially since you get it faster with the Tradition Opener)

Commerce definitely needs boosting.

Autocracy probably does too.

 

[Tabarnak]

Before june's patch Tradition was very competitive because luxuries gave 1 more happiness and Landed Elite was incredibely useful because of that but also because it was possible to unlock +2 as your 3rd policy only. I think these 2 features were pretty equivalent from Liberty's bonuses and the free GP.

The Liberty's GP is still later than before too, but come at a time where you can choose many great options like getting Machinery, Steel or Chivalry for a medieval rush or simple build ND,PT or any wonder for free.

Changes have really hit Tradition. Liberty is stronger because Tradition got nerfed.

I used to play with Tradition more than Liberty but now differences are so huge that it's hard to get a good use of Tradition, even for cultural victories.

Proof of ancient Tradition's effectiveness

 

[danieladler]

i dont believe in nerfing liberty. its tradition that needs to be more attractive. perhaps with an early happiness boost of some sort. or even better rewards for your capital.

 

[Hammer Rabbi]

the free garrison policy seems out of place for tradition. they should keep something that gives cities a 100% city attack bonus, but change that it requires a garrison (albeit a free one) to get that because putting an archer/cannon/etc. in there isnt "free" since you cant re-garrison after an attack.

either make the garrison action not a movement cost for ranged units or dont require the unit to actually be garrisoned, just require it to be in the city. that would even let cities on coasts get the garrison bonus from triremes and other naval units (though not workers or work boats).

 

[bcaiko]

What would you do to strengthen tradition (or weaken liberty)? Is it the early settler and worker that make it overly powerful, or the promise of an eventual great person?

I would move the free settler to tradition and away from liberty. A tall empire (not OCC) doesn't have the time/spare cities to build a settler and the free one would really help. Liberty on the other hand, would still have the faster building of settlers bonus.

I think that small change would balance out Liberty and Tradition nicely. IMHO.