Why Islam is a problem for the integration of immigrants

[Hehehe]

Because of the mosques and how they strengthen division.
German public television produced a "mosque report", with the goal to understand what is happening in normal German mosques.
What I got out of it so far: Mosques are the forge of a distinct Islamic identity which positions itself as opposed to the mainstream. People are directly discouraged to befriend Christians, Christianity / the western lifestyle are badmouthed etc, while at the same the gatherings in the Mosques build up a group identity, spiced with a sense of victim hood and marginalization. This leads to an us-vs-them-mentality. The practice of their Islamic heritage binds people together and keeps them to themselves.
To me mosques look like the powerful engine of a parallel society whose very identity breaths non-integration, but rather exclusivity and counter-culture.
Moreover: That kind of community-forging has no real counterpart in the German society. So this offers also something people can not get anywhere else even if they would want to, while welding a power alien to how German society works.

Not so much Islam itself, but this cherishing of being different and viewing the mainstream as something hostile and lesser is what differentiates Muslims from other immigrants. And I think this is an important reasons why Germany has little problems with Poles or Vietnamese, while a lot with immigrants from Islamic countries.

It also does not help that those mosques tend to be quit conservative. Apparently Syrians who recently came to Germany where taken by surprise how conservative they are.

So yeah, Islam is a problem for integration. That seems crystal-clear to me.

Do you happen to have any information on how common this sort of thing is? How prevalent is it among Muslims? Are there some kind of percentage figures? I'm not taking a stance either way, I'm just curious if there are any hard numbers to this sort of thing.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

edit: X-Post

Most Christians in Germany seem very docile. Which makes Muslims all the more alien. People who take their religion seriously...

 

[Farm Boy]

Just to make sure I'm up to speed thus far, Islam is a problem with the integration of immigrants because people have a problem with their churches, and a problem with people who take their religion seriously?

 

[Terxpahseyton]

Do you happen to have any information on how common this sort of thing is? How prevalent is it among Muslims? Are there some kind of percentage figures? I'm not taking a stance either way, I'm just curious if there are any hard numbers to this sort of thing.

I don't think there are. It also would be quite the undertaking to try to crunch this into representative numbers. But I can say that the source which sparked this thread is focused on being Muslim-friendly and that no extremist mosques but "normal" mosques where looked at.
The title of the article I am referencing was "You fear what you do not understand" - which meant Germans not being familiar with mosques.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

Just to make sure I'm up to speed thus far, Islam is a problem with the integration of immigrants because people have a problem with their churches, and a problem with people who take their religion seriously?

No. The problem is that those churches foster an identity of... god dame it go read the OP

 

[Farm Boy]

I read it. Thrice. Then I made that post. Though, to be fair, I wouldn't have typed it as the 2nd post in this thread.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

Didn't show. Bit I commend that!
Okay I do all the talking. You spoke of people having problems with sth. related to Islam. When this thread is about why immigrants from Muslim countries do not integrate due to problems inherent to their religious practice, rather than due to exterior factors like wht people think about them (though that, of course, is also a factor).
that thing about taking religion srsly was just a joke, btw. Though one with some truth to it.

 

[Farm Boy]

Mine was kind of a joke too, probably about the same level of bitter in it. I can tell I'm getting older because the more I read about "integration" the more often I hear "be cool with teaching their daughters to have casual sex with me" or some variation thereof. Possibly my bad, but I'm pretty sure not entirely. I don't believe it's altruism, usually.

I'm not trying to make light of integration problems. I just really don't think it's the religion that's driving it. If it wasn't that, it'd be something else. "Women and children refugees only! No single males!" A common refrain, and one that is accurate about who is "disruptive." But... why.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

Mine was kind of a joke too

God dame it. No one on the Internet knows weather you are a dog serious.

It is cool to bring sex into the conversation because sex is everywhere and that is probably why we only allow it in a few places. By which I mean to say I am taking seriously what you are saying. But still all I can respond is "Okay...."

 

[Farm Boy]

Hah!

You mean you have problems reading the tone of an idiomatic Midwesterner who has to mutter his writing under his breath in order to compose? Thus possibly explaining at least some of the terrible grammar? No, nevar!

Take it as a bit rueful, not accusatory, pretty please.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

Someone said human conversation was like bird singing. It only serves to attract mates, mark territory or to convey sympathy. Henceforth I judge this conversation as successful. In exclusion of any other measure.

(I don't think it was grammar or tone. Just the things said. But I liked this conversation regardless)

 

[Farm Boy]

Where we going to make out?

 

[Terxpahseyton]

A mosque?

 

[Farm Boy]

I'm not sure that's a kosher safe space.

Sorry, I'll quit derailing now.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

Someone had to end it.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Since their power feeds from being foreign, those two things look like two sides of the same coin. Rather than counteracting each other as you seem to ... suggest? What are you even saying? Really don't see your point.

I guess. Really don't know how this matters.

For once I would like to discuss this issue without reverting to ethical slogans

My point was that "the mosque" is no different from "the synagogue" or "the cathedral" or whatever other religious building crosses the path. So when your opening post talks about the mosque as if it presents some sort of challenge the obvious question becomes "how is it unique?" If it is really unique it is going to require some creative thinking. But if the answer to "how is it unique?" is "well, it really isn't" then we can look to solutions applied before.

I didn't intend to inject an "ethical slogan." I was just pointing out that in my opinion the challenge is not unique. Islam is not an inferior, more antagonistic, less reasonable, or otherwise faulty religion. The only difference is that it is a challenge now, currently, while in Germany the protestant reformation is long past and the holocaust is (not quite so) long past so those challenges are not current.

Your opening post, while thoughtful, seems to move for making the situation harder than it is, by presenting the problem as unique...which would demand creativity in search of a solution. Instead it seems possible to examine how similar challenges were faced not only in Germany but in other countries that may have dealt with them better, or worse. To be honest I think that Germany has done well at that...at least better than most.

 

[Zkribbler]

How do you work against that grip, though? Sure, we should do that. But how? We can try to be more understanding or welcoming or whatever, giving less incentive to seek refuge in those communities. But I don't see that happening in a way which would be decisive, at all.

This has happened with every group of immigrants who came to America, starting with the Catholics and Methodists in pre-Revolution times, then in the 19th Century with Germans and Swedes, with Russian Jews, with Chinese, Japanese, Italians, Mexicans, then in the 20th Century with Koreans, Vietnamese, and Cambodians.

I give you the open lines of My Big Fat Greek Wedding: "We Greek woman are expected to do three things: marry a Greek boy, make Greek babies, and cook Greek food until the day we die."

Chill out. There's no need to recycle the Statue of Liberty. Things will work out just fine.

 

[Ajidica]

This has happened with every group of immigrants who came to America, starting with the Catholics and Methodists in pre-Revolution times, then in the 19th Century with Germans and Swedes, with Russian Jews, with Chinese, Japanese, Italians, Mexicans, then in the 20th Century with Koreans, Vietnamese, and Cambodians.

They said the same thing about the Hmong in Minnesota; and I can confirm they have integrated well. Little Hmong ladies who can barely see over the wheel of their SUV have reached the same proficiency at nearly running me over on crosswalks as soccer moms constantly digging in the compartments of their minivan.
Somali women using hijabs as cellphone holders still have some work to do though.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

This has happened with every group of immigrants who came to America, starting with the Catholics and Methodists in pre-Revolution times, then in the 19th Century with Germans and Swedes, with Russian Jews, with Chinese, Japanese, Italians, Mexicans, then in the 20th Century with Koreans, Vietnamese, and Cambodians.

I give you the open lines of My Big Fat Greek Wedding: "We Greek woman are expected to do three things: marry a Greek boy, make Greek babies, and cook Greek food until the day we die."

Chill out. There's no need to recycle the Statue of Liberty. Things will work out just fine.

You left out the Irish and Scots. I'm offended.

 

[Paul in Saudi]

So yeah, Islam is a problem for integration. That seems crystal-clear to me.

How do you feel about Orthodox Jews? How about the Anabaptists?