Why no argument for abortion has ever worked.

Well, speaking for myself, the distinction I'd make is that it's no longer just her body.

Not that I disagree with you, in practice. But couldn't one say the same thing about any stereotypical pro-life advocate? It strikes me that you're just as pro-choice and pro-life as them, you just disagree about when a fetus is a person.

It's similar to my stance, sure. I don't think of myself so much as pro-choice as pro-sentience, though.
 
Not that I disagree with you, in practice. But couldn't one say the same thing about any stereotypical pro-life advocate? It strikes me that you're just as pro-choice and pro-life as them, you just disagree about when a fetus is a person.
Well, isn't that what the debate is about?
 
It's similar to my stance, sure. I don't think of myself so much as pro-choice as pro-sentience, though.

That's awesome. Accurate, but way too intelligent. :) You have to lower it down to a 4th-grade level in order for the masses to adopt it.
 
I am in favor of the procedure being legal and safe, AND in favor of women's right to choose to have that procedure IF they want it. I am also in favor of women's right to choose not to have it and not suffer homelessness, loss of education, loss of employment, loss of social standing, or family support, etc. if they opt to continue the pregnancy and raise the child that will eventually result.

Yes I know what your stance is, you already explained it. I've not claimed otherwise. Given how many words I've had to say to actually clarify, it's weird that you seem so reluctant to read any of them and insist on drawing erroneous conclusions about what I'm implying by "pro-abortion".


There are a few people with whom I've been conversing for months on a Richard Dawkins video page. Of course the creationists have taken the conversation into abortion (there's another video in which Dawkins interviewed anti-abortionist Wendy Wright), and this American woman informed me that "there is an abortion clinic on every street corner in Canada" and that I must therefore (since Canada doesn't have specific laws pertaining to abortion since decriminalizing it) be in favor of abortion up to the very last seconds of the baby exiting the mother's body. And she just doesn't get why these are wrong things to say. After all, what do I know - I've just lived here all my life and know where I myself would draw a line. She, like the poster upthread here, insists that I'm "pro-abortion" and she goes on to say that I "celebrate" abortions.

I'm used to offensive crap being thrown at me on YT. I really don't need it here.

Well it's a good job nobody's saying any of that stuff here then.

Yes, you are. Repeatedly and deliberately.

Refusing to agree with someone else's point of view is not the same thing as not getting their point.


Choice is not a "fluffy, cuddly" term. It's a very powerful term, especially for people who don't have much of it in their lives.

Respectfully disagree. As I've stated in other posts it's a term that focuses entirely on just one of the issues involved and ignores all others.

Don't be disingenuous. Most people understand the term "pro-choice" to refer to the abortion debate.

And you also know exactly what I mean by pro-abortion and why I said it. No need to continue to argue really.
 
Not really. I am pro-smoker's right to smoke cigarettes, but I myself would never smoke because I think it is an unhealthy habit. That makes me anti-smoking but pro-choice because while I dislike the idea of smoking I believe people should have the right to make their own choices about what they want to do with their bodies.

Governments seek to discourage smoking not because of a distaste of smoking by politicians (case in point: Barack Obama was a regular smoker prior to assuming the office of POTUS, the reverse of your situation). Rather, governments seek reliable tax payers: Discouraging smoking improves health scientific data indicate, so discouraging smoking becomes a good thing from the government's point of view. This consideration is what moves anti-smoking policy.
 
Generally, would you want people who want an abortion to be forced into raising children on the nascent hope they come around to it?

My wife got an abortion when our birth control failed. She never wanted to be a mother and I was wishy washy and didn't feel strongly one way or anther. I have no doubts that our lives, child included would be utter hell if we had been forced into parenting.

Fetus rights are a specious argument given the fact that all rights are granted in an attempt to limit abortion as much as possible. It's not like we're having a grand societal debate about it, one side has determined fetuses are people and that people generally are on their own once they leave the womb, the other side supports women self selecting to become a parent. It's kind of an easy call here.
 
Well, isn't that what the debate is about?

Well, it's also about women and how historically men have controlled what they do with their bodies, particularly with respect to reproduction.
 
It's not a given that all aborted babies go to Heaven. I could argue from the Bible that we are all sinful at birth--and therefore, all babies go to Hell, the same as those who died never even hearing of Jesus. It's awful, I don't believe it myself, but I could argue it.

Personally, I don't know. I don't know when a soul starts, I don't know where they go. Why lie and say I do?
 
Well, isn't that what the debate is about?

It fundamentally is, certainly at least on the pro-life side. The pro-choice term, though, is a very poor choice of words, then. And especially of the arguments I see in their rhetoric.

I don't know what to call the 'I think the early fetus isn't a person, ergo I don't mind if it's killed' position. It's my position, certainly. But I always thought the pro-choice position was that it was the woman's choice on whether her womb was being used against her will. It's where so much of the argumentation lies.
 
I'm honestly conflicted on the question of late-term abortions. While I generally agree that by the time you hit the third trimester the fetus is approaching a stage in life that appears quite human, I think the debate is rather a misdirect. Late-term abortions are extremely rare, and when they do happen, they almost exclusively occur due to an unforeseen extreme emergency scenario in which the pregnancy becomes seriously unviable. So to bring up that argument seems, to me, rather like when Republicans bring up voter fraud as a justification for their Voter ID laws. Sure, voter fraud is a troubling, possibly even disturbing act in the abstract, but the issue is so infrequent that I can't help but feel like it distracts from the actual issue, and moreover makes what should be a rather simple issue into something distinctly more gray and ambiguous. I'd much rather trust that people are, for the most part, rational actors, that abortion is never an act taken lightly, and that, if someone who's been sitting on a pregnancy for 6+ months and then suddenly decides they don't° want the pregnancy anymore, they probably have a very good reason for that.

°again, don't want in 99.9% of cases = can't have
 
The pro-choice side has been using the argument that pro-lifers don't care about you after you're born to dismiss the entire pro-life side for quite some time. The fact remains that very significant portions of the pro-life crowd care very deeply about life from beginning to end.
How is it that people keep missing the word "SOME" in my posts? Just willful blindness?

Who does more charitable works is completely irrelevant. Who harasses women going to get abortions is really irrelevant as well to the point I'm making...and yes, it happens - of course it does. There are plenty of pro-lifers who go way too far...but the vast majority of pro-lifers go about their business without waving a picture of an aborted fetus in your face.
I don't recall being the first to bring up charitable works. I'm just sick and tired of being told that people like me don't engage in charitable volunteering or give donations.

Who harasses women is definitely NOT irrelevant. At least it's not as far as I'm concerned. How about instead of them waving signs at women entering and leaving health clinics (and keep in mind that they may be there for reasons entirely unrelated to pregnancy) and harassing them, they turn their energy toward improving conditions for young/teen/poor/single pregnant women so they'll have more incentive to keep the pregnancy going? Waving a flag and screaming at someone isn't going to help put food on her table, it's not going to help her get a job or an affordable place to live, it won't help her with affordable childcare, or the myriad other things women have trouble accessing.

I've not been IMpolite, I've just used a term that others don't like or don't agree with for ideological reasons (despite it being objectively quite descriptive) and repeatedly stated why I think it's applicable because I've been repeatedly challenged on it.

If avoiding tedious side-arguments is the issue then the fault lies just as much with the people repeatedly challenging my use of language. It takes two (or more) to have a tedious side-argument.

Sensitivity... I thought I was talking to adults, not delicate petals who can't handle dissenting opinions.
You've been told the term is inappropriate and why, yet you insist on continuing to use it. That's impolite.

Well I'm fine with using pro-life and pro-choice, because everyone knows what they mean.
Apparently some don't, though. I've seen "pro-waffles" thrown around in the thread. I really don't see how some people jump directly from "pro-choice" to "You must run out and get an abortion immediately because it will make me happy." Yet that's what some pro-life individuals have said (not in exactly those words, so nobody needs to post a snide, pedantic comeback, thank you).

Well, do you think that opposing infanticide should also disqualify a person from the identified "pro-choice"?

Everyone draws a line somewhere, no self-evident reason that "pro-choice" should mean drawing it at the moment of childbirth.
Infanticide is the killing of a baby after it's been born. Legally, that is murder, unless it's euthanasia for medical reasons (in which case it's not infanticide). I don't see what this has to do with abortion.

I get that lots of people who call themselves pro-choice don't actually support late-term abortions. Lots do, though. And a LOT of the dialogue on the pro-choice side doesn't seem to have a natural exemption for the late fetus.

So, when someone says "that's a decision between the mother and the doctor", it's not really what they mean? It's more "that's a decision between the mother, doctor, and me"?
What part of "not my/your business" is hard to understand?

My RL neighbor is pregnant. I estimate that she will bring her howling bundle of joy home from the hospital within the next 2-3 months. The only part of this whole thing that actually is my business is that I already get woken up by her other screaming brats and this will add even more reasons why I'll probably come to the forum in a very cranky mood (don't tell me to move; they're not my screaming brats, and I make sure to hush my cats up when they get too vocal). If she were to suddenly decide not to continue her pregnancy, it is not my business to say she should or shouldn't. But I do wish she'd move.

Yes I know what your stance is, you already explained it. I've not claimed otherwise. Given how many words I've had to say to actually clarify, it's weird that you seem so reluctant to read any of them and insist on drawing erroneous conclusions about what I'm implying by "pro-abortion".
You say you "know" what my stance is, but it's obvious that you don't understand it. You come across to me as someone who has never had to make a serious, life-altering choice in life, or been told by someone in authority that "this is the way it will be; you have no choice" - so you can't relate to the concept of choice being something that is very important.

You keep insisting that I think and believe things that I really don't, and I'm more than tired of this nonsense. I'm done talking to you.
 
Valka D'Ur said:
You come across to me as someone who has never had to make a serious, life-altering choice in life, or been told by someone in authority that "this is the way it will be; you have no choice" - so you can't relate to the concept of choice being something that is very important.

I feel like this is the only way you can actually think pro-choice means pro-abortion. If you've never been through an abortion, it's so easy to "prove" it with an internet post.
 
What part of "not my/your business" is hard to understand?

:confused: It's not.

Even accounting for your normal obstreperousness, I cannot fathom how you don't think I understand that to be some people's position in the 'pro-choice' crowd? I was literally forwarding the idea that some people use that as their pro-choice mantra. The other people were disagreeing that it was a normal pro-choice stance.
 
If you've never been through an abortion, it's so easy to "prove" it with an internet post.

I can say definitively for sure that 100% of the people on this thread have never been through an abortion. :D
 
Hey, Valka, I was just in your neck of the woods, out at Saskatchewan Crossing. Had a grizzly encounter just 100 yards north of the Glacier Skywalk.
It was a safe encounter, I hope.

It's been far too many years since the last time I was there. :(
 
You've been told the term is inappropriate and why, yet you insist on continuing to use it. That's impolite.

Ah right. I was told. If it's impolite to not let someone with no authority over you language police you, then that's a level of impoliteness I'm proud to support.

I really don't see how some people jump directly from "pro-choice" to "You must run out and get an abortion immediately because it will make me happy." Yet that's what some pro-life individuals have said (not in exactly those words, so nobody needs to post a snide, pedantic comeback, thank you).

And yet... that's exactly how you choose to interpret it when I say "pro-abortion". Funny that.

You say you "know" what my stance is, but it's obvious that you don't understand it. You come across to me as someone who has never had to make a serious, life-altering choice in life, or been told by someone in authority that "this is the way it will be; you have no choice" - so you can't relate to the concept of choice being something that is very important.

You keep insisting that I think and believe things that I really don't, and I'm more than tired of this nonsense. I'm done talking to you.

Well how very impolite of you.

Not really interested in your opinion of what my life story and experiences are, just as I wasn't when Lexicus asked about them, because it's entirely irrelevant to anything that I'm saying and bringing it up is just a diversionary tactic and an excuse to not engage.

Also, other than saying "I know" in response to you telling me what you think, I can't think of a single time where I've even hinted at what you think or believe, let alone insisted on it. I can only assume you're not really reading anything I say (it certainly would seem to be the case).
 
Well, it's also about women and how historically men have controlled what they do with their bodies, particularly with respect to reproduction.
Not fundamentally. If abortion was murder, it wouldn't matter how lengthy a list of grievances you could bring on behalf of women, it'd still be murder. It wouldn't matter who was enacting the laws, they'd still be coherent with the generally accepted prohibition on murder. The debate around the morality of abortion hinges on whether abortion is or is not the killing of a human person with their own little bundle of rights and protections, and at what point a foetus crosses that line.

The historical control exercised by men over women's reproductive freedoms is certainly an issue worth confronting, and it's important in tying together the struggle for abortion rights to issues like access to contraceptives, the provision of effective sex education, and so on, to the whole progressive program of equality and freedom and all that good stuff, but it's not central to the narrow issue of whether or not abortion is or is not moral.

It fundamentally is, certainly at least on the pro-life side. The pro-choice term, though, is a very poor choice of words, then. And especially of the arguments I see in their rhetoric.

I don't know what to call the 'I think the early fetus isn't a person, ergo I don't mind if it's killed' position. It's my position, certainly. But I always thought the pro-choice position was that it was the woman's choice on whether her womb was being used against her will. It's where so much of the argumentation lies.
That seems like an issue of phrasing. We could also say "I think the early foetus isn't a person, so it's the woman's choice to terminate". The reservation you have around the term "choice" seems rooted in an over-literal meaning of the word as describing an absolute and unrestricted liberty, which is, aside from anything else, at odds with how people use the word in day-to-day life.

By analogy, I can drink a beer, because that's my choice, and anyone seeking to prevent me from doing so would have to have a good reason to constrain my choices. But if I was a severe alcoholic, if that choice becomes destructive, then people have reason to intervene, to constrain my choices. So it's possible for a person to oppose the prohibition of alcohol on "pro-choice" grounds, while still accepting the need for intervention to prevent self-harm. (Not a perfect analogy, I'll grant you, because there's obviously a difference between self-harm and harming somebody else, bu you see the point I'm making.) The question is always where the line is drawn where we permit that kind of intervention, and in this case, most pro-choice advocates accept foetal sentience as the most reasonable place to draw it.

I'll acknowledge, some people do lean heavily on the argument from bodily autonomy, and if made too crudely, it leads to some questionable conclusions. But I think these conclusions are generally unintentional, a result of poor or simplistic argument, rather than an opinion held by most advocates of abortions rights, or a necessary condition for identifying oneself as "pro-choice". If that was the case, "pro-choice" would describe a tiny fringe of ultra-libertarians, rather than the large, multi-national movement we generally take it as describing, and which you seem to support.
 
I feel like this is the only way you can actually think pro-choice means pro-abortion. If you've never been through an abortion, it's so easy to "prove" it with an internet post.

Were you abused as a child? I feel like only someone who was abused as a child would see the world as you seem to see it. I mean hey, feel free to not answer the question and dismiss it as irrelevant if you like, but if you do I'll just draw my own conclusions anyway.

Moderator Action: This isn't an appropriate comment to make, even if you didn't mean what you appeared to mean.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
 
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