Why no dip of the flag ?

[Borachio]

What? Once lowered, the US would never get it back up again?

Spoiler :

Nononononono. That's too much, I know.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Dipping your ensign is not a way to render honors for underway vessels. It is done with whistles. Civilian ships don't render honors, I have not encountered it in 12 years plying the worlds waterways. The junior ship initiates honors regardless of the nation it is from. Obviously with non-NATO or otherwise allied ships that is many times unknown so you just play it by ear.

I participated in OP Sail and NYC fleet week this past summer and every US ship exchanged honors with every foreign ship and they all used the same whistle signals. Two short for attention to port (or one for starboard depending on which side you are passing on), one for hand salute, two for ready-two (drop salute), three For carry on. The senior ship will return the same signals one signal behind.

The US does return honors unless it endangers the ship (ie we are busy navigating or the sound signals might be confused for navigation signal) or there is some diplomatic reason not to in which case we will be directed not to from the top. You wouldn't to so for a NK vessel because you never know how they will use such things for their own purposes.

In other words your OP makes no sense. Just because our way of rendering honors is done differently than other countries (i am taking your word for it because within maritime norms it is not) does not mean our was is any less respectful.

Acccording to the Naval Officer's Guide, the ensign is actually dipped quite frequently aboard US naval vessels:

Dipping the National Ensign: When any vessel under US registry, or under the registry of a nation formally recognized by the government of the US, salutes a ship of the Navy by dipping its ensign, the Navy ship answers dip for dip. If not already being displayed, the national ensign must be hoisted for the purpose of answering a dip. An ensign being displayed at half-mast is hoisted to the truch or peak before the dip is answered. No ship of the Navy should dip the national ensign unless in return for such compliment.

 

[GoodGame]

It seems a lot of Americans are confused with their stating that the American flag is never dipped.
So American warships do not return the salute of some civilian ship by dipping their ensign ?
Or do the Fox news mob have it confused ?

I just read that its in US Navy regs to dip in response to a dipped flag, but only then.

 

[Patroklos]

Acccording to the Naval Officer's Guide, the ensign is actually dipped quite frequently aboard US naval vessels:

Dipping the National Ensign: When any vessel under US registry, or under the registry of a nation formally recognized by the government of the US, salutes a ship of the Navy by dipping its ensign, the Navy ship answers dip for dip. If not already being displayed, the national ensign must be hoisted for the purpose of answering a dip. An ensign being displayed at half-mast is hoisted to the truch or peak before the dip is answered. No ship of the Navy should dip the national ensign unless in return for such compliment.

Which doesn't happen, like beating your wife on the court house steps should you have one or more relevantly flipping up your armored visor, hence I told you what DOES happen Admiral-General Forma as the US uses sound signals even if some other nations might use flags themselves. Are we really going to do this? I just transferred off a warship as a department head Forma, we render honors every time we leave port at least. Are you really about to do this, Seriously?!

The actual regulation, note section five, sound signals it is.

http://doni.daps.dla.mil/US Navy Re... Pennants, Honors, Ceremonies and Customs.pdf

 

[Gucumatz]

The refusal to dip the flag started with European immigrants who refused to offer a sign of respect to monarchs who drove them from their homes.

So if you want to blame anyway, you got to blame the Europeans on both accounts.

Sounds distinctly American and something to be proud of.

 

[Formaldehyde]

I just transferred off a warship as a department head Forma, we render honors every time we leave port at least. Are you really about to do this, Seriously?!

I don't really expect logistics officers to know what is clearly in the Naval Officer's Handbook. Why should they?

DIPPING THE NATIONAL ENSIGN

U.S. Navy Regulations stipulates that when anyship under United States registry or the registry of anation formally recognized by the United Statessalutes a U.S. Navy ship by dipping its flag, thecourtesy is to be returned, dip for dip. If a salute isrendered to a naval vessel when the ensign is notalready displayed, such as before 0800 or after sunset(in port), the national ensign shall be hoisted for thepurpose of answering the dip and, after a suitableinterval, hauled down. If displayed at half-mast, thenational ensign must first be hoisted to the peak beforeanswering the dip, then returned to half-mast after asuitable interval.No U.S. Navy ship shall dip the national ensignunless in return for such compliment. U.S. naval ships(USNS) of the Military Sealift Command do not dipthe national ensign to Navy ships, since they are publicships of the United States.Formal recognition does not necessarily mean thatdiplomatic relations must exist. Moreover, the fact thatdiplomatic relations have been severed does not meanthat the United States no longer recognizes theexistence of the state or the government concerned.

According to the State Department (Protocol)listing of 6/86, the following governments (fig. 10-l)were not formally recognized by the United Statesand, therefore, are not entitled to a salute.

Seamanship: Fundamentals for the Deck Officer

NavCivGuide: A Handbook for Civilians in the United States Navy

Regulations for the Government of the Navy of the United States ..., Part 1

Have things radically changed recently to render all these authoritative sources obsolete? Do you know when this occurred?

 

[Mad Man]

Yeah, I've done some reading about this before, and America has some pretty unique (and I would say weird, but that's only because I'm not American and am not used to this) veneration of the flag and other state symbols.

I'm not sure why, but I think at least in Europe, the view tends to be "it's just a symbol, our country is represented by the people, this is just a placeholder, nothing to get your panties in a bunch about". I think that view was shaped by all the bloody wars fought under the banners of lords and nations.

Meanwhile America's saint-like veneration and respect for the flag was shaped by.. I'm not sure what? But I don't know my American history very well.

The ghost of Betty Ross lives in every American flag (even the ones made in china) and every time you disrespect or gorgeous flag, Betty will kill and destroy everything you hold dear, why do you think there's so much death and destruction in the middle east?

 

[Patroklos]

I don't really expect logistics officers to know what is clearly in the Naval Officer's Handbook. Why should they?



Seamanship: Fundamentals for the Deck Officer

NavCivGuide: A Handbook for Civilians in the United States Navy

Regulations for the Government of the Navy of the United States ..., Part 1

They are all "wrong" and you must be "right".

They are telling you how to respond to another nations ceremonies, not how the US itself does so Admiral-General. The senior officer has the digression to respond to other nations ceremonies as he sees fit, and my source clearly states. I gave you the actual navy regulation, none of your sources beat that especially because the one you are hanging your hat on (the third one) is from 1913. Let me repeat that for you Forma, 1913. Feel free to scroll to the cover page. The first one is from 1986, the second is a broken link. Thats what happens when you are a shoddy googler who jumps at any link. Luckly I have a physical copy of the Watch Officers Guide, fourteenth edition 2000, at my elbow right now because I happen to be a professional naval officer. It clearly states that foriegn vessels are to be rendered honors via the method for the President should confusion exist (with sound signals) and other wise honors are returned in kind. WE DO NOT INITIATE DIPS. Which is cool, BECAUSE THIS NEVER HAPPENS.

As I stated in my initial post merchant ships simply don't do this, I have never encountered it and bet you can't find an example of it happening anything close to timely.

So Admiral-General, once again we have a moment you can learn from but instead decided display once again how ignorant you are of everything military. I wouldn't expect an enlistment reject such as yourself to act any different of course. But what do I know, I only actually do this stuff as I will show you...



Link to video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ya5dse-1umA

This would be the mighty vessel USS Gonzalez at fleet week 2012, I was a crew member of this ship until last month and was on the bridge wing when we passed and rendered honors to the Spanish tall ship. All ships rendered honors to each other and it included foreign ships from places such as Spain, Venezuela, Colombia, Indonesia, and many others. While you can't hear the whistles due to the distance you can clearly see neither ship dips ensigns.

But hey Forma, you have millions of underway days under your belt surely. I mean you are a self styled expert after all. Why don't you post a video showing what you are talking about?

 

[Formaldehyde]

The senior officer has the digression to respond to other nations ceremonies as he sees fit, and my source clearly states.

So you now admit that I was right all along? That the ensign is indeed dipped to foreign powers as I have continued to document?

That the only time it isn't done is because the "senior officer" supposedly wants to commit a "digression"[sic] by insulting the foreign power?

It would appear that you are actually the "Admiral-General", at least in your own mind.

 

[Patroklos]

I said from the start that this is how THE US renders honors. When you are involved in other nations ceremonies they obviously do things different. As far as rendering honers close abroad the video shows they don't do so as you believe they do.

And as I stated and just showed you foreign nations don't dip their ensigns but rather use whistles. I am not surprised you are ignorant of this having failed to qualify for military service, never spent a second on an underway military vessel, and of course are using sources from 1913.

Let me repeat that for you Admiral-General, 1913, most people would be embarrassed for not only being horrendously wrong but also obviously trying to force your lie via deliberately presenting crap sources.

I await your inevitable, and comical, triple down. Easy money.

 

[Gucumatz]

Really Forma? I think you should just drop this one...

 

[Patroklos]

Here is another example, the USS Wasp who was the senior ship at Fleet Week taking honors from a Brazilian ship. IT also shows that no ensigns are dipped, but is also sort of cool to see next to each other.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZbi9Wbf1Bw

I visited that ship a couple days later, it is kept immaculate. OP sail also visited Norfolk for our Harbor Fest that year so I got to walk around and see all the tall ships at close quarters and walk aboard the Indonesian ship. Pretty cool.

 

[BvBPL]

Cool video. The tug just in the foreground of the Wasp demonstrates how incredibly massive these vessels are. The relative size of the Cisne Branco really demonstrates just how amazing naval infrastructure and command is. Somehow it seems more amazing that one could develop and crew a ~420' vessel (the Branco) w/o computers than it is to staff the 843' Wasp w/ eighteen hundred seamen w/ computers.

 

[warpus]

Some interesting info here. These flag laws are far too complicated for my taste

 

[Patroklos]

Those ships are very cool, and to think they are manned primarily by cadets (in the case of the two ships in the videos) who only have a couple years onboard and they crew those things effectively is impressive. The USCG has a tall ship (a war prize from Germany in WWII) but the USN does not, just ram yard patrol craft.

 

[BvBPL]

Those ships are very cool, and to think they are manned primarily by cadets (in the case of the two ships in the videos) who only have a couple years onboard and they crew those things effectively is impressive.

I think that part of that is the incredible power that conformity and working as group lends people. Working together, we are more than the sum of our selves. Indeed, working as group not only elevates the aggregate, but also the individual.

Not that you would get many people singing the praises of conformity in this community, mind you.

The general decline of conformity as a social virtue within American is very interesting.

 

[MobBoss]

I don't really expect logistics officers to know what is clearly in the Naval Officer's Handbook. Why should they?

Oh. My. Dear. God. He is a NAVAL OFFICER on actual DUTY right now.

You're a programming geek googling crap.

Get over yourself. YOU ARE NOT A MILITARY EXPERT. Never have been. Never will be.

Dude...you arent quoting regulation.

Son...google books dont override actual navy regulation.

Form, once more, you show your utter incompetence on things military.

Really Forma? I think you should just drop this one...

Wise words, but he wont heed them even from neutral parties. Never has before, so I dont expect it to start now.

He has the absolute worst credibility around here on things military, and yet he continues to argue with military professionals with decades of service.

You'd think he'd learn something as much as he gets owned in these conversations, but no. I suspect he has issues regarding things military that wont let him admit he's wrong. But that's just my opinion.

 

[classical_hero]

He should be good with a gun, if he is a proficient shooting himself in the foot. Their might be hope for him in the military after all.

 

[Farm Boy]

Yeah, I've done some reading about this before, and America has some pretty unique (and I would say weird, but that's only because I'm not American and am not used to this) veneration of the flag and other state symbols.

I'm not sure why, but I think at least in Europe, the view tends to be "it's just a symbol, our country is represented by the people, this is just a placeholder, nothing to get your panties in a bunch about". I think that view was shaped by all the bloody wars fought under the banners of lords and nations.

Meanwhile America's saint-like veneration and respect for the flag was shaped by.. I'm not sure what? But I don't know my American history very well.

Correct. We do have a lot of that. Take it back to the roots though. The design of the nation was centered around a rejection of a monarch as the head of state. The deference due to that institution was not eliminated, it was flung into the state itself and by proxy it's visible manifestation in the flag.

But I think you're entirely right. When we had an English visitor at the neighboring small town parade he was legitimately confused as to why everybody stood up when the flag at the start was marched by.

 

[Formaldehyde]

I said from the start that this is how THE US renders honors. When you are involved in other nations ceremonies they obviously do things different. As far as rendering honers close abroad the video shows they don't do so as you believe they do.

You are obviously confusing "rendering honors" and dipping the ensign, which you apparently now even admit the latter is still done.

But that wasn't even what the question was:

It seems a lot of Americans are confused with their stating that the American flag is never dipped.
So American warships do not return the salute of some civilian ship by dipping their ensign ?
Or do the Fox news mob have it confused ?

Dipping your ensign is not a way to render honors for underway vessels. It is done with whistles. Civilian ships don't render honors, I have not encountered it in 12 years plying the worlds waterways. The junior ship initiates honors regardless of the nation it is from. Obviously with non-NATO or otherwise allied ships that is many times unknown so you just play it by ear.

The question obviously had nothing to do with "rendering honors". It clearly had to do with dipping the ensign. You twisted it into that form while even implying that dipping the ensign was not done "for underway vessels" which is patently false.

So the correct answer to Otago's question is "yes", not "no". US Naval ships do indeed dip its ensign to ships of other countries. It is even done with civilian ships, which is what Otago's original question was. There is no criteria mentioned whatsoever that limits it to just warships in any of these authoritative publications I have posted. The only criteria is that it must only be done in return of another ship dipping its own ensign first, and it should only be done to a ship of a friendly country with a only few specific countries prohibited.

Furthermore, in the video you posted, it is quite clear the Cisne Branco never dipped its ensign, so it is obviously completely "irrelevant" to this discussion.

So go right ahead and continue to do such an excellent job showing I was actually right all along, "Admiral-General", despite your actual "digression" to the contrary.