Why the West will always win

[Alpine Trooper]

I don't think superior culture, thus, military superiority holds. The Germanic tribes were able to destroy the Roman Empire will a less advanced culture, and the Mongols conquered much of Eurasia as such.

Germanic tribes didn't wholly contribute to the downfall of Rome. Their were numerous internal factors aswell. We could also consider these tribes as Westerners.

 

[Marla_Singer]

The Mongol could have taken Europe. They just found better, far richer targets in the Middle-east, India and China.

I refer to this excellent article by Vrylakas.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=58648

It's rather undisputable that Europe was backward during the Middle Age. I actually fail to see how this could make an argument.

 

[blackheart]

Hannibals army was made up of primarily Westerners. Namely Spanish.

Good for him, I never talked about Hannibal.

What do you mean by this one?

Western nations have been relatively stable and peaceful in the past 60 years whilst other nations have had time to practice their warmaking.

Where are they now? All besides China have been taken by the West.

That's the point of learning history. No empire or superior force lasts forever. It's fact. So the West will never always win.

 

[Babbler]

Hannibals army was made up of primarily Westerners. Namely Spanish.

But you said that Western civilization started with Greece. Expect for a few colonies in the Iberian peninsula, I don't think Greece had much influence there. Besides, they were commanded by Carthagians, descendants of Phoenician colonists.

 

[Knight-Dragon]

It's rather undisputable that Europe was backward during the Middle Age. I actually fail to see how this could make an argument.

Merely in rebuttal to his assertion that the Mongols 'couldn't' take Europe.

Who would want to waste time and effort putting up any argument with an obvious troll?

 

[Alpine Trooper]

That makes no sense. Culture doesn't have anything to do with the tips of spears.



How about the Ottoman invasion of Hungary and Austria?

A temporary victory and eventual return to the West.

 

[blackheart]

Germanic tribes didn't wholly contribute to the downfall of Rome. Their were numerous internal factors aswell. We could also consider these tribes as Westerners.

You're starting to make less and less sense. Why don't you include the Natives of America as westerners as well, because you consider America as the west? Germanic tribes and Rome had vastly different cultures and technology in the same time period.

 

[Alpine Trooper]

But you said that Western civilization started with Greece. Expect for a few colonies in the Iberian peninsula, I don't think Greece had much influence there. Besides, they were commanded by Carthagians, descendants of Phoenician colonists.

I said for historys sake we can begin the debate with Greece. The West encompasses your typical European man.

 

[Marla_Singer]

Germanic tribes didn't wholly contribute to the downfall of Rome. Their were numerous internal factors aswell. We could also consider these tribes as Westerners.

Well being an atheist it's really painful for me to admit this, but we can't honnestly talk about a Western civilization untill the raise and spreading of christianity. This being said, the Western culture is certainly born from Christianity but has totally achieved its emancipation from it since the 18th century.

 

[Irish Caesar]

Western nations have been relatively stable and peaceful in the past 60 years whilst other nations have had time to practice their warmaking.

Too much fun flirting with thermonuclear war to actually fight a WWII style conflict. We did an awful lot of fighting, though.

 

[Alpine Trooper]

You're starting to make less and less sense. Why don't you include the Natives of America as westerners as well, because you consider America as the west? Germanic tribes and Rome had vastly different cultures and technology in the same time period.

Don't think of the "west" geographically. The West should imply your typical European man. America is considered the West because it is made up of primarily Europeans.

 

[Alpine Trooper]

Well being an atheist it's really painful for me to admit this, but we can't honnestly talk about a Western civilization untill the raise and spreading of christianity. This being said, the Western culture is certainly born from Christianity but has emancipated itself from it since a long time (18th/19th century).

I stopped short of declaring Christianity as a reason for Western Superiority but it is a consideration wouldn't you agree?

 

[blackheart]

Too much fun flirting with thermonuclear war to actually fight a WWII style conflict. We did an awful lot of fighting, though.

The west hasn't faced a real war that actually threatens the homeland since WW2. You don't need to have a WW2 style conflict, just conflict that is far reaching in society.

BTW, a bunch of stoned hippies picketing doesn't count as far reaching.

 

[Alpine Trooper]

The west hasn't faced a real war that actually threatens the homeland since WW2. You don't need to have a WW2 style conflict, just conflict that is far reaching in society.

BTW, a bunch of stoned hippies picketing doesn't count as far reaching.

Korea and or Vietnam?

Korea probably brought us the closests to Nuclear War ever.

 

[Marla_Singer]

But you said that Western civilization started with Greece. Expect for a few colonies in the Iberian peninsula, I don't think Greece had much influence there. Besides, they were commanded by Carthagians, descendants of Phoenician colonists.

The Western civilization cannot be born in Ancient Greece knowing that Greek knowledge has been totally forgotten during more than 1,000 years in most of Europe. It's been only re-discovered at the Renaissance.

 

[Irish Caesar]

The west hasn't faced a real war that actually threatens the homeland since WW2. You don't need to have a WW2 style conflict, just conflict that is far reaching in society.

BTW, a bunch of stoned hippies picketing doesn't count as far reaching.

True, but there have been plenty of smaller conflicts...the West (USA and USSR) just figured to have others do the dirty work for them. Hence, the support of rebel groups, covert operations, and the outright occupation of foreign nations.

 

[Marla_Singer]

I stopped short of declaring Christianity as a reason for Western Superiority but it is a consideration wouldn't you agree?

I would actually consider Christianity as the reason of European backwardness during the whole Middle Age. It's only once Europe has started to see beyond christianity, during the Renaissance, that the West finally made significant technological improvements.

 

[Babbler]

Some thing to ponder, Alpline Trooper:

What is Western Civilization, anyway? I define as any culture with its basis dervive from Classical Greece, Rome and the Roman Catholic Church.

Also, you cannot really talk about an "Asian" culture. At least, you can talk about a Muslim, Indian and Chinesee civilization, with satille nation around them. And that is grossly over simplified.

Who's been fighting in an on-and-off phase in the last century? Certainly not the West.

*Cough-World War, parts One and Two-cough*

 

[Alpine Trooper]

I would actually consider Christiannity as the reason of European backwardness during the whole Middle Age. It's only once Europe has started to see beyond christianity, during the Renaissance, that the West made significant technological improvements.

Technological improvements did follow. However, I would argue that the greatest advantage was tactical battlefield improvements. I'll use Napoleon for example. He really changed the way of warfare after the Renaissance.

 

[Riesstiu IV]

Oh god, I have to read Carnage and Culture by Victor Davis Hanson for class. The book is so awful forcing the reader to see his simplistic and one sided views of military history.

This article by war nerd sums up my feelings about Hanson.

http://www.exile.ru/2005-July-28/victor_hanson.html