Why the West will always win

This whole thing is silly.

Before the Cambrian explosion, all life on Earth was single-celled. Should that mean that it always would be.

Previous to about 1000 B.C. by far the most powerful area on Earth was the Middle East. Did that mean it should always be so?

Previous to 1492, the Chinese Navy was by far the most powerful in the world. Did that mean it would always be so?

Previous to the Renaissance, western civilization was hamstrung by the shackles of Christianity. Did that mean it would always remain so? ;)
 
Babbler said:
The Muslims, in the early years, threaten the existence of Christendom several time, being stopped only by the Byzantines and the Austrians.
Don't you forget the Franks?
 
The thread seems silly, so I didn't read it all, but I will point out that a basic problem with the starter's contention is that of how to define the West. Given that the current members of "the West" are precisely those that have been militarily successful, and that many past members of "the West" have been militarily unsuccessful and were weeded out, the thread's proposition rests on a restrictive definition of "the West" which excludes all the nations which would presently be members but for military failure. This perforce has a way of skewing one's perception from the get-go: it's all well and good to talk about presently surviving Western powers and the non-Western powers they have defeated, but then you're not considering all Western powers, only the successful ones, and of course they're successful. IOW, your sample contains a bias. If the Avars had conquered all of Europe, today you'd be saying that the West is undefeatable because the Avars turned back the Arabs in the ninth century, and the Turks in the fifteenth, and they're kicking China's ass right now. You see the point of ridicule.
 
Steph said:
Agreed. We could change the title of the thread to "why the winner will always be the one who wins".
It could be as accurate
:lol: :lol: that is a good one, i agree.
 
We could change the title of the thread to "why the winner will always be the one who wins".
Steph does with 10 words what I do with 100. Nice way of putting it.
 
Steph said:
Agreed. We could change the title of the thread to "why the winner will always be the one who wins".
The arguments used by Alpine trooper would fit as well... If not better
:lol:

Can I? Can I? :D :mischief:

But no, I am not one to abuse my privileges... :(
 
Alpine Trooper said:
The Mongols couldn't conquer Europe because their culture was inferior to that of the west. Of course at this time, military and culture are one in the same.

wow thats wrong in so many ways, i dont even know where to start. :shakehead

forget it, ill just leave instead.
 
Alpine Trooper said:
Western Civilization is Superior to all other Civilizations militarily. The West will always win. The West has always won.

We need to know what is the West? and from when it "appeared"? Is it Western Europe from the Middle Ages to today's Europe+North America+Australia? Or does it dates back to Athens and Sparta?
 
Don't know if this was already mentioned ... (i didn't read all the posts)

When the iceage will start the West (Europe&America) will no longer win.
 
Alpine Trooper said:
Western Civilization is Superior to all other Civilizations militarily. The West will always win. The West has always won.

Carnage and Culture by Victor Davis Hanson.

I am not interested here in whether European military culture is morally superior to, or far more wretched then, that of the non-West. The Conquistadors, who put an end to human sacrifice and torture on the Great Pyramid of Mexico City, sailed from a society reeling from the Grand Inquisition and the ferocious Reconquista, and left a disease and nearly ruined New World in their wake.

I am also less concerned in ascertaining the righteousness of particular wars-whether a murderous Pizarro in Peru (who calmly announced, "The time of the Inca is over") was better or worse than his murdering Inca enemies, whether India suffered enormously or benefitied modestly from English colonization, or whether the Japanese had good cause to bomb Pearl Harbour or the Americans to incinerate Tokyo.

My curiosity is not with Western man's heart of darkness, but with his ability to fight-specifically how his military prowess reflects larger social, economic, political, and cultural practices that themselves seemingly have little to do with war.


If you disagree with myself and Mr. Hanson, please provide your reasoning. Don't provide me with small battles where Western armies may have lost a couple hundred men somewhere during some date in time. I want big picture proof that the West has lost.

Please spare me your Iraq comments. Also,

You will find that in certain places such as Vietnam, there was never a total loss on the Wests part. And the Vietcong wouldn't have gotten where they did without Western arms.

So, has the west not always been militarily superior?


You're wrong.

Western Christendom, or the West as it is called today, had it's good times and bad times. Both Arabs and Ottomans have been very close to its destruction.

Today's good position of the West is largely a result of the modernisation, which started in Europe. It has given us an advantage and we exploited it. But now, Japanese, Chinese and Indians are rapidly modernizing and their military strenght is growing. You can't expect that Western military superiority will endure forever. I am sure Romans thought the same in the first century :)
 
Can we just close this thread and stop Alpine Trooper's childish attempts at trolling?
 
blackheart said:
Can we just close this thread and stop Alpine Trooper's childish attempts at trolling?
No.Alpine was merely stating that the West have a hegemony with its values and institutions of this very present day.Its possible,as long as the westerners[doesnt matter if your a typical white european,this apply all ethnic,racial,or other national origin]believe in themselves,i dont see it myself of losing our dominance on culture and institutions.:)
 
CartesianFart said:
No.Alpine was merely stating that the West have a hegemony with its values and institutions of this very present day.Its possible,as long as the westerners[doesnt matter if your a typical white european,this apply all ethnic,racial,or other national origin]believe in themselves,i dont see it myself of losing our dominance on culture and institutions.:)

Uh no. Alpine says the West always has and always will have "superiority." Then he goes on about cultures which aren't western to begin with. From there it degenerates into him flaunting the West's "cultural" superiority over everyone else.
 
Alpine Trooper said:
Western Civilization is Superior to all other Civilizations militarily. The West will always win. The West has always won.

Carnage and Culture by Victor Davis Hanson.

I am not interested here in whether European military culture is morally superior to, or far more wretched then, that of the non-West. The Conquistadors, who put an end to human sacrifice and torture on the Great Pyramid of Mexico City, sailed from a society reeling from the Grand Inquisition and the ferocious Reconquista, and left a disease and nearly ruined New World in their wake.

I am also less concerned in ascertaining the righteousness of particular wars-whether a murderous Pizarro in Peru (who calmly announced, "The time of the Inca is over") was better or worse than his murdering Inca enemies, whether India suffered enormously or benefitied modestly from English colonization, or whether the Japanese had good cause to bomb Pearl Harbour or the Americans to incinerate Tokyo.

My curiosity is not with Western man's heart of darkness, but with his ability to fight-specifically how his military prowess reflects larger social, economic, political, and cultural practices that themselves seemingly have little to do with war.


If you disagree with myself and Mr. Hanson, please provide your reasoning. Don't provide me with small battles where Western armies may have lost a couple hundred men somewhere during some date in time. I want big picture proof that the West has lost.

Please spare me your Iraq comments. Also,

You will find that in certain places such as Vietnam, there was never a total loss on the Wests part. And the Vietcong wouldn't have gotten where they did without Western arms.

So, has the west not always been militarily superior?

VIETNAM

There I said it.
 
I agree with the people that said Western civilization did not start until after the fall of the Roman Empire. It can be debated at what exact point it formed after this event. The Roman and Greek states were indeed predecessors to Western civilization though. The West did not exist until Christianity was wide spread.

Military power is not based entirely on culture although certain aspects of a culture can perhaps be conducive to an effective military (promotion system for example). Since military power is so competitive these are usually copied though. Sometimes a country can build up its military skill will trashing its long term viability. National wealth does help military power however that is different from being simply good at fighting and winning wars & battles, which seems to be the topic at hand.

No civilization or culture remains perpetually invincible as long as the world continues as it has done through history. To believe that one can never been defeated can result in one becoming immune to necessary changes and hastened the possibility of being superceded. If other countries in Eastern Asia can approach at least 75% the level of development Japan has reached (in terms of per capita GNP) they could be quite powerful militarily. This does not mean each culture has to copy everything from another culture that is successful rather it means that a culture that continues constantly without the occasional major change will probably not remain the most powerful (purely militarily speaking) forever.

The West has a good track record on technological development however its population is relatively static now at least compared to most of the rest of the world (Russian, Japan, and a few other non-Western countries do have low growth rates as well). Eventually this will start to have noticeable effects and increase the importance of other regions. The West is unlikely to be conquered or destroyed in the near future though unless something very unusual happens.
 
blackheart said:
Uh no. Alpine says the West always has and always will have "superiority." Then he goes on about cultures which aren't western to begin with. From there it degenerates into him flaunting the West's "cultural" superiority over everyone else.
Maybe your right about Alpine,i didnt read all of his reply on regarding of his cultural chauvanistic opinions.

I am a citizen of the world.:king: The only solution to peace is empire.I find that the momentum of USA and its Western allies[even Japan,South Korea still maintain thier own asian identities,eventhough i consider them westerners]still believe in themselves and not give up hope that their values 'are' better than others.As long as the west is always technologically in the lead.I find that the world will finally finds peace,when tolerance between all Nation-states will finally open to each other borders and respect the laws and institutions of any given lands.This is what the true western values is all about.

The only problem with the hatefull liberals is the very fact that liberals are victims of their own lack of faith of their own system of values.The values of openness ,freedom and the preservation of all what we will die for.:)
 
Alpine Trooper said:
And like I have said. Our military superiority is a result of our superior culture. Asia will never catch up because it is culturally inferior.

Moderator Action: Warned for trolling. Watch it. - KD
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
Culturally inferior, eh? What happened to the 4500 years of Chinese civilization? What happened to their inventing paper, the printing press, etc. before the West? Granted, Civ is a product of the West (which probably makes your argument that much stronger :lol: ) Hieroglyphs? Eastern import! Cuneiform? Same goes.

The fact is, West and East started on an even footing.
Then the East got way ahead, about around the invention of paper.
Around the invention of the printing press (in Europe, 400 years after the Chinese invented it), Europe started to catch up and get way ahead about the Industrial Revolution.
Now the East is slowly catching up.

See a pattern?
 
I've read most of his book, and it's crap.

The west was not superior at warfare, in any time. The Greek poli were able to defeat the Persians, why? Because, for all of the citizen farmer rhetoric, they were called up so often, they were essentially professional soldiers drawn up against the unmotivated levies of Persia. When they actually ran up against forces which were actually decent soldiers, like Central Asia, they took years to subdue it, or in India, which they never attacked at all. You may say for all you wish that he turned back because his soldiers wouldn't follow him any further; that argument is BS. Indian armies were powerful enough to make him think twice--a relatively minor king of Porus was defeated because he had the good luck to come during the monsoon. If he had come any further, the Nanda armies would have destroyed his army piecemeal.

Let's go onto the next most cited example. Rome. Rome was... hmm... how shall we say it? Remarkable. But not because of its culture, or because of its cultural ethics. Rome was a born and bred killing machine, who paid the millions of people that they garnered from the rich levies of Italy with the gold that they pillaged from the land. Nothing that was not militarily significant or had practical purpose was developed by the Romans; they had roads to have their armies travel long distances, aqueducts to water their cities, walls to keep out enemies. What is not pointed out is that the Romans have exactly what Hanson detests--essentially a theocratic despotism, the emperor being a god, with the empire built on thousands of slaves and the pre-medieval equivalent of a fuedal society. There was no proto-capitalism, there was none of that BS he brings up all the time; Rome was in and of itself a remarkable state that was built solely to conquer other states.

From thereon we see a medieval Europe fall into the Dark Ages, personally my favorite period of Western History, but also the point where it is utterly impossible to argue that the West was any good at all in warfare. They managed to repel the Arabs at Poitiers? Sure, but that ignores the fact that the Arabs were at Poitiers at all. They arrived tired after a long march... A long march, folks. The West wasn't doing any triumphant conquering, they were repelling the mere vanguard of Arab invasion. Yes, this stopped the Arab advance from spreading any further. Anyone want to tell me when the Muslims were actually evicted from Spain? Oh, right, 1492. How about from Europe in general? Oh, right, they're still there. Fact is, the West was invaded, and it took them centuries to repel the invasion.

Crusades! you might boldly cry out. Right, Crusades. Any volunteers as to what happened to the Crusader states? They died, to put it bluntly. They invaded in a time of internal Muslim squabbles, survived because the Mongols essentially flanked the Muslims on a massive scale, and the Muslims were fighting the Byzantines as well. And yet, it took a mere two hundred years for them to drive out the West (compare this to 700 years for the expulsion of the Moors and still pending for the Turkish retreat).

By 1400, we see the emerging synthesis of Western armies... which still don't do much at all. Their cannonry is inferior to that of the Turks, the Indians, and even the Chinese. They adopted it from the Chinese, in fact, who invented it two centuries earlier. Western armies were still not even on par with the Turkish slave armies Hanson derides all the time.

The Reformation is probably the catalyst for Western fast expansion, in that it divided Europe into two competing parts, which developed technology much faster. And yet, in and of themselves, they still didn't have much of a military edge on the rest of the world. between 1400-1700, the main Western asset was in that they could fund a war with American riches, and that this could buy a highly disciplined army. After this time is when we finally see the Western armies clearly superior.


Overall, then, the West was not superior for most of its history. It became superior due to the fact that its geography discouraged invasion, but still permitted information exchanges, so they recieved the technology of elsewhere, and could develop it on their own. It also prospered due to its fortunate geographic location: the Americas, a vast, virgin land, easily exploitable, that no other civilized power was nearby. The riches of the Americas funded the Hapsburg domination of much of Europe, prompting the alliance against it. American riches funded the beginning of the British Empire, allowing them to take over India with superior discipline, so India could take the new place of the crown jewel of the British Empire.

It was geography, and a lot of luck in the great commanders, inventors, and leaders they had. They dodged the bullet so many times, it's not even funny. The West was not superior, merely lucky.
 
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