Why would anyone support the practice of abortion?

[Pasi Nurminen]

40 Million Kids not wanted.
Maybe kids from kids (people less than 18 years, maybe ~13).
Kids from people who could not afford a kid.
Kids from people who don't a kid at all and don't wan't to raise a kid.

There is a low chance that a lot of these kids would be valuable for a society. Most of them would raise as problem-kids and will grow into problem-people.

Abortion is no murder. It is the free right of every woman to choose whether they want a kid or not. Belief me, most woman who choose to do so don't do it light-heartly. And those who do it easy and without any regret (maybe even several times) would serve really bad as mother.

There are enough people on this world. We don't need numbers for every price. To many kids where risen by people who don't really care about their childs. Often these kids will cause problems later. Many more of these kind will not serve well any society.

I favor less kids around, who where risen by parents who really care about them and help them to grow up.

The woman made the choice to risk having a child when she consented to unprotected sex. You live with the mistakes you make, and take account for them. Women do not have the right to have unprotected sex, and then terminate the life of a human being simply because they do not want to have a child. Contraception in it's many forms are available: spermicide, diaphragms, condoms, morning after pills, and many others. Having an "accidental" pregnancy is just carelessness on the part of those having sex, and abortion is just a way for them to get out of it. I realize I'm making huge generalizations here, but hey, I have the right to do that, since I'm right. Use contraception, or else don't have sex. Contraception can terminate 98% (approximately) of unwanted pregnancies before they even start.

Which goes back to the whole question of morals in particular. If people would stop having sex outside of a monogomous (not necessarily marriage, although waiting until after marriage practically guarantees that any pregnancies that might result, unplanned or planned, the parents will be able to support), stable relationship, then unwanted pregnancies would be practically nonexistant.

Here's an idea: adoption! There are countless agencies and organizations out there, many of them state run, that accept babies just born because the mother cannot or will not support them. I would have no problem with such facilities being paid for by taxpayers. Sure, it's still a cop out by the parents, who should at least have the courage to stand and take account for their mistakes, but it's much better than killing someone. How anyone can argue against adoption is beyond me, since a mother going to get an abortion isn't going to keep the kid anyways, and a child can be put up for adoption at any time after birth. One hour or one year or ten years. It doesn't matter.

 

[The Last Conformist]

I mean when's the last time you saw a couple in a very stable relationship that were responsible people and you think would make great parents ever get an abortion?

That happens all the time. Usually connected to contraceptive failure.

bortion, because otherwise your already booked vacation to the Costa del Sol should be cancelled, is most certainly not allowed here!

Really?

In Sweden, a woman can have an abortion for any reason whatsoever until the 18th week. I would not have guessed that the Netherlands were less liberal on this point.

 

[hawai_74]

The woman made the choice to risk having a child when she consented to unprotected sex. You live with the mistakes you make, and take account for them. Women do not have the right to have unprotected sex, and then terminate the life of a human being simply because they do not want to have a child.

this is so naive, this can be true in theory... but when a girl is raped, what you do? Let her suffer... Please think about what can happen. Even the contraception has its failures...

 

[Pasi Nurminen]

Rape accounts for less than 1% of unwanted pregnancies, so it can be excused.

And contraception, when used properly, is virtually guaranteed to prevent pregnancy.

 

[The Last Conformist]

I've, BTW, never really got the typical pro-lifer's willingness to make an exception in rape cases. We would in no other circumstance condone murder just because it is likely to help someone else's mental health.

 

[The Last Conformist]

And contraception, when used properly, is virtually guaranteed to prevent pregnancy.

That's simply not true.

However, the point is one of principle - does using contraceptives rid you of the implicit acceptance of responsibility of engaging in intercourse? What the fail rate is isn't really relevant.

 

[Pasi Nurminen]

Of course not: if you make a mistake, you take account for it. If you have sex, you are taking a risk, regardless of how big or small the risk is. And if you end up having a baby, take account for your mistake.

This goes for men too: men who leave a woman just because of an unwanted pregnancy are cowards.

 

[yoshi74]

The woman made the choice to risk having a child when she consented to unprotected sex. You live with the mistakes you make, and take account for them. Women do not have the right to have unprotected sex, and then terminate the life of a human being simply because they do not want to have a child. Contraception in it's many forms are available: spermicide, diaphragms, condoms, morning after pills, and many others. Having an "accidental" pregnancy is just carelessness on the part of those having sex, and abortion is just a way for them to get out of it. I realize I'm making huge generalizations here, but hey, I have the right to do that, since I'm right. Use contraception, or else don't have sex. Contraception can terminate 98% (approximately) of unwanted pregnancies before they even start.

I find it somehow odd that you limit this article on woman. To get pregnant there has to be a man involved. Many unwanted pregnencies happen while people use contraception. There is no 100% safety. I doubt that there are many woman who see abortion as a form of contraception.
And when a woman gets unwanted pregnant the man is as much reponsible for this as the woman.
But the point is that the woman has to live with the child. The man can go, enjoy his own life without many problems. Maybe he has to pay some money (some even find ways to go around this), but it is the women who risks her health, has to be there for the child 24/7, has to pay for it and often also work for the money for her and their child(s).
It is the woman who has to live with the mistakes she AND her male partner did.
Your opionion is so typical male that i as a male myself really understand why woman right activist are mad people like you.

Which goes back to the whole question of morals in particular. If people would stop having sex outside of a monogomous (not necessarily marriage, although waiting until after marriage practically guarantees that any pregnancies that might result, unplanned or planned, the parents will be able to support), stable relationship, then unwanted pregnancies would be practically nonexistant.

Won't gonna happen, and i'am glad for it.

Here's an idea: adoption! There are countless agencies and organizations out there, many of them state run, that accept babies just born because the mother cannot or will not support them. I would have no problem with such facilities being paid for by taxpayers. Sure, it's still a cop out by the parents, who should at least have the courage to stand and take account for their mistakes, but it's much better than killing someone. How anyone can argue against adoption is beyond me, since a mother going to get an abortion isn't going to keep the kid anyways, and a child can be put up for adoption at any time after birth. One hour or one year or ten years. It doesn't matter.

Sound good. Build such a system and look if the number of abortions will decrease. If yes thats good. I appreciate any alternative to abortion (as most women to, i think).
But even than i would never touch the right of the woman to decide over her own body and her own life. Most man have no glue what is means to have a child with no one helping you. Would they, they would no longer oppose abortion.

 

[Pasi Nurminen]

I find it somehow odd that you limit this article on woman. To get pregnant there has to be a man involved. Many unwanted pregnencies happen while people use contraception. There is no 100% safety. I doubt that there are many woman who see abortion as a form of contraception.
And when a woman gets unwanted pregnant the man is as much reponsible for this as the woman.
But the point is that the woman has to live with the child. The man can go, enjoy his own life without many problems. Maybe he has to pay some money (some even find ways to go around this), but it is the women who risks her health, has to be there for the child 24/7, has to pay for it and often also work for the money for her and their child(s).
It is the woman who has to live with the mistakes she AND her male partner did.
Your opionion is so typical male that i as a male myself really understand why woman right activist are mad people like you.

This goes for men too: men who leave a woman just because of an unwanted pregnancy are cowards.

Yea, you're right, my opinion is totally limited to women, and I am a wifebeater, opposer of women's rights, a misogynist, etc, etc, etc.

Sound good. Build such a system and look if the number of abortions will decrease. If yes thats good. I appreciate any alternative to abortion (as most women to, i think).
But even than i would never touch the right of the woman to decide over her own body and her own life. Most man have no glue what is means to have a child with no one helping you. Would they, they would no longer oppose abortion.

In a few words: IT EXISTS. You CAN put a child up for adoption. So why not?

And you are seriously overgeneralizing about men. Fact is, few men leave women once an unplanned pregnancy occurs. Just because they do not get married or terminate their relationship does not mean the father completely leaves the mother's life.

 

[yoshi74]

This goes for men too: men who leave a woman just because of an unwanted pregnancy are cowards.

True. But consider that many people who have sex don't intent to stay together their whole life (or some years or even the next day). Being forced to stay together for the sake of a unwanted child (as it happens some decades ago quite often) is good for no one, plain and simple.

 

[Stapel]

That happens all the time. Usually connected to contraceptive failure.

Really?

In Sweden, a woman can have an abortion for any reason whatsoever until the 18th week. I would not have guessed that the Netherlands were less liberal on this point.

It was a typical counter measure.

It turend out that some young women, having had an abortion for this silly reason, later regretted. To avoid such situations, a new law was created.

 

[Pasi Nurminen]

True. But consider that many people who have sex don't intent to stay together their whole life (or some years or even the next day). Being forced to stay together for the sake of a unwanted child (as it happens some decades ago quite often) is good for no one, plain and simple.

So, again, kill the baby just because the parents do not want to continue a relationship? And the parents do not need to stay together just because they have a child, ask one of the hundreds of millions of parents who are divorced with children below the age of 18.

 

[Stapel]

In a few words: IT EXISTS. You CAN put a child up for adoption. So why not?

plain and simple figures here show that:

-Women having (and keeping) an unwanted baby, have a fair chance of suffering form mental problems afterwards.

-Women having aborted their pregnancy, have a slightly lower chance to suffer mental problems.

-Women keeping their unwanted baby and giving it away for adoption after birth, have massive chance to suffer mental problems.

I really hate the fact I have to pay massive taxes in NL, used for all kinds of nonsense, but must admit it can be usefull for internet discussions

 

[Pasi Nurminen]

plain and simple figures here show that:

-Women having (and keeping) an unwanted baby, have a fair chance of suffering form mental problems afterwards.

-Women having aborted their pregnancy, have a slightly lower chance to suffer mental problems.

-Women keeping their unwanted baby and giving it away for adoption after birth, have massive chance to suffer mental problems.

I really hate the fact I have to pay massive taxes in NL, used for all kinds of nonsense, but must admit it can be usefull for internet discussions

Number one: care to provide any links to fair and objective sites with data on that? I don't see any "plain and simple figures" anywhere in your post.

Number two: so what? Anything is better than killing a human being. Would you kill a baby just because it means a "slightly lower chance of mental problems?" Adoption is the best option, and besides, most agencies allow the parents at least some measure of contact with the child later on in its life.

 

[yoshi74]

So, again, kill the baby just because the parents do not want to continue a relationship? And the parents do not need to stay together just because they have a child, ask one of the hundreds of millions of parents who are divorced with children below the age of 18.

Then we have again a mother who is up to raise their child alone. I sense a circular debate.

But this is mood talking. The real question is: Do you consider abortion a murder or not.
I say no, therefore i can excuse it.
You say it is murder, and therefore can't excuse it.

It is my opinion that there are no general rights in the world. All rights a human has are given to him by his society. And in societies where abortion is legal the society does not give the right to live to someone not even a person of its own, but still a part of his mother.

As said before and i say it again. We don't need to breed people for any price. When someone don't wan't a kid, then no.

 

[Stapel]

So, again, kill the baby just because the parents do not want to continue a relationship? And the parents do not need to stay together just because they have a child, ask one of the hundreds of millions of parents who are divorced with children below the age of 18.

SPOT ON


My parents divorced when I was 7 years old (my brother was 6). It was, without a question, the very very very best thing they have could ever do in the interest of me and my brother!

My earliest childhood memories? Not being able to fall asleep, as you hear your parents arguing about nothing until 1am? Trying to figure out why your parents act so nice, when others are around, but not when alone?

Good thing they did split!

A bit off topic, but worth to mention, I think!

 

[Pasi Nurminen]

Then we have again a mother who is up to raise their child alone. I sense a circular debate.

But this is mood talking. The real question is: Do you consider abortion a murder or not.
I say no, therefore i can excuse it.
You say it is murder, and therefore can't excuse it.

It is my opinion that there are no general rights in the world. All rights a human has are given to him by his society. And in societies where abortion is legal the society does not give the right to live to someone not even a person of its own, but still a part of his mother.

As said before and i say it again. We don't need to breed people for any price. When someone don't wan't a kid, then no.

My parents were divorced before I was one year old, essentially the equivalent of being born out of wedlock, and my mother did not raise me on her own. My father was there, every step of the way. Were there problems raising me? You bet. Am I a lesser person because of it? Hell no.

 

[Duddha]

@Pasi

Your argument rests on the assumption that a fetus is a legal person. Please elaborate on why a fetus should be considered a legal person capable of being murdered.

 

[Vilati Timmadar]

And the parents do not need to stay together just because they have a child, ask one of the hundreds of millions of parents who are divorced with children below the age of 18.

Yeah, and that's a lot of fun to live like that.
You can't do what you want anymore. Getting a partner is really hard because of the children. You have to work your *** off to get enogh money AND divorce is such fun - all the hours at court, and the attourneys...

Here's an idea: adoption!

As a woman, you'd still have to carry the baby until it's born. In that time you could loose your job. Yes, there is maternity leave and stuff like that, but very often after maternity leave you get a bad and boring job. In an economical situation like ours today you can't afford that.

You live with the mistakes you make, and take account for them.

Even a murderer gets a second chance; you don't wanna give that to a woman??

Two new points:
One: Contraceptives work normally at 98 %. So there's 2 % of failure. Let's say a couple has sex 3 times a week - that means that the woman is (statistically) pregnant about three times a year - and she didn't do anything wrong. Do I have to say anything more?
Two: Adoption is good. But most people don't do it. Here in Germany it's possible to give a baby totally anonymous to certain organizations. It's called "Babyklappe" which roughly means "baby basket" or "baby door".
But still - many parents keep the baby and kill it after a couple of months, because they're not up to the task. In most cases they didn't want a baby but they tried. It would be better for them to get an easy abortion - and for the child, too, because it wouldn't have had to suffer.

 

[yoshi74]

Were there problems raising me? You bet. Am I a lesser person because of it? Hell no.

Never said that. And we don't talk about childs who experienced their parents divorcing, but about childs NOT WANTED.

[edit]

@Pasi

Your argument rests on the assumption that a fetus is a legal person. Please elaborate on why a fetus should be considered a legal person capable of being murdered.

Right on, this is the real centre this debate should swirl around.