Why would anyone support the practice of abortion?

[The Last Conformist]

Hmm..maybe antitrust law works differently in France, but I don't think it would save TLC over here.

First of all, in order for antitrust law to apply at all, I have to be marketing a service. There is no assumption that I am. I may simply have the machine in my basement for my own personal use and the use of my friends.

Second, I am not preventing TLC from building his own machine or getting treatment from someone else. The fact that there is no one else who can give him this treatment sucks for TLC, but how is that my fault? Why should I be penalized for his unfortunate position?

Just to annoy the Libertarians, how about the State expropriating the machine, citing public interest in protecting the life of a citizen?

 

[Akka]

Hmm..maybe antitrust law works differently in France, but I don't think it would save TLC over here.

I have a hard time imaginating this in France, as someone can't be left without treatment. It's the insurance (and, if he's no money, then the insurance is automatically assured by the State) that would pay for the healing.

First of all, in order for [...] his unfortunate position?

Honestly, that's a so far-stretched scenario, I have trouble to really imaginate it.
I can only say : you have at least a moral obligation to help him. And I wonder what the rest of the world wait for building such a useful device en masse ^^

 

[Little Raven]

Just to annoy the Libertarians, how about the State expropriating the machine, citing public interest in protecting the life of a citizen?

Certainly the state can do that. In fact, from where I sit, it appears that many people in this thread are arguing that that is exactly what the state should do. I'm just curious if they realize it.

 

[cgannon64]

He should borrow it and build his own copy.

 

[The Last Conformist]

The obvious counterargument is that the more analoguous case were if you were responsible for my need of dialysis.

Sold my kidneys on the black market, I suspect!

 

[Little Raven]

I have a hard time imaginating this in France, as someone can't be left without treatment. It's the insurance (and, if he's no money, then the insurance is automatically assured by the State) that would pay for the healing.

But the issue goes beyond money. I don't want TLC mooching off my machine any more. It's my machine. His using it causes wear and tear, and means I may get less use out of it. I built the damn thing; it's mine, and I get to do what I want with it. TLC may need it, but he doesn't own it. That sucks for him, and I certainly agree with you that it means I have a moral obligation to help him, but legally, he can't do anything.

Honestly, that's a so far-stretched scenario, I have trouble to really imaginate it.

Ah, but you see, it isn't really very far-fetched at all. In happens hundreds of times a day.

Oppenents of abordtion are quick to call it state-sponsored murder. It is true that we currently kill a fetus during an abortion, but that could change. We could easily design an abortion procedure where the fetus extracted intact and alive. Of course, such a procedure would be rather pointless, because without the womb supplied by the mother, that fetus won't be alive very long.

But the womb belongs to the mother, just like my machine in my example belongs to me. The fetus may need the womb to survive, but that doesn't give the fetus any legal claim to it, anymore than TLC can claim his need for dialysis gives him the right to my machine.

The nice thing about this argument is that it gets rid of the need to debate what's a person and what isn't. We treat the fetus as we would any other person in this dog-eat-dog world of ours. Sure, the fetus can't hack it on his own, but that's just his bad luck, isn't it?

 

[zjl56]

Here in the U.S abortions are still allowed in the third trimester. I find it sickening to know that a fully grown fetus ready to be born can still be killed. And I am tired of people saying that abortion is necessary to save lives. It does not save lives and it does not help society. Many Countries in North America and Europe have declining populations from this act. Abortion is draining on countries population and many countries are only sustaining a large economy by immigration. I would to point out that the U.S is in dire need of lower aged workers now that a huge number of workers are going to be retired.

 

[Akka]

Raven, unless I've suddendly appeared in another dimension, the machine isn't part of your BODY, is it ?
Use the same analogy, but with the State forcing you to donate your kidney. See the answers.

 

[Little Raven]

The obvious counterargument is that the more analoguous case were if you were responsible for my need of dialysis.

But that counterargument only holds if the mother wanted the child.

If I invite you into my home, offer to let you set up shop, then suddenly change my mind and kick you out, that's one thing.

But I simply leave my door unlocked while I go on vacation, and you come and set up shop on your own, then I'm perfectly justified in kicking you out when I get home and find you eating Pringles on my couch. Sure, I should have been more careful about locking my doors, but the fact that I didn't in no way legally obligates me to continue supporting you.

 

[The Last Conformist]

It's ridiculuous to suggest the European demographic decline is caused by abortion. And thanks to immigration, populations are still growing in most of western Europe anyway. As for the US, population is growing rapidly.

 

[Little Raven]

Raven, unless I've suddendly appeared in another dimension, the machine isn't part of your BODY, is it ?

I'm not sure I follow. My body is my property, just as the machine is. If anything, I should exhibit the greatest possible level of legal control over my body.

I don't think I'm on opposite sides of you on the abortion debate. I firmly support freedom of choice, simply because I believe that trying to outlaw it is futile. But ideologically consistent arguments regarding abortion are very difficult to find, and the one I've presented is one of the few I've found. I'm still evaluating my stock in it, but I think it shows promise.

 

[zjl56]

Ya immigration keeps populations up. Most of the immigrants come from societys where abortion is an alien thing. Our populations will decline if we do not stop this act of violence.

 

[The Last Conformist]

But that counterargument only holds if the mother wanted the child.

If I invite you into my home, offer to let you set up shop, then suddenly change my mind and kick you out, that's one thing.

But I simply leave my door unlocked while I go on vacation, and you come and set up shop on your own, then I'm perfectly justified in kicking you out when I get home and find you eating Pringles on my couch. Sure, I should have been more careful about locking my doors, but the fact that I didn't in no way legally obligates me to continue supporting you.

That's under the current legal regime. There could easily be one in which leaving your door unlocked is taken to be implicit acceptance of anyone setting up shop there. I'm sure we can find someone who will agree that it should work that way.

 

[Akka]

I'm not sure I follow. My body is my property, just as the machine is. If anything, I should exhibit the greatest possible level of legal control over my body.

You mean you REALLY don't see any difference between your material possessions and your BODY ?

 

[The Last Conformist]

I'm not sure I follow. My body is my property, just as the machine is. If anything, I should exhibit the greatest possible level of legal control over my body.

As you probably know, one of my pet peeves is that one's body is not one's legal property. The rights you have to your body are not the same as those you have to external objects you own; in some respects they go further, in some, not as far. This is the case in every jurisdiction I know of.

Addendum: It follows that thinking that the state should expropriate your machine, or that it should not, does not have any necessary implication on your views on illegalizing abortion.

 

[Little Raven]

That's under the current legal regime. There could easily be one in which leaving your door unlocked is taken to be implicit acceptance of anyone setting up shop there. I'm sure we can find someone who will agree that it should work that way.

Of course we can. We could probably find someone on this board. But I doubt we'll ever find very many people who think this way, because the notion is patently ridiculous. I mean, what happens if I lock my door, but you break a window or climb down the chimney? Can I still throw you out?

Americans are very attached to their property rights. So I find it helpful to rephrase the abortion conflict in those terms. This argument might not hold so well in Europe, where people are much more comfortable with the government using private property to facilitate public good.

 

[The Last Conformist]

Ya immigration keeps populations up. Most of the immigrants come from societys where abortion is an alien thing. Our populations will decline if we do not stop this act of violence.

"Our"?

Abortion was happening in the 19th C, when Europe's population exploded. In the '80s, Sweden had a higher abortion rate and a higher rate of births/deaths than today.

 

[Akka]

If someone is so attached to his property than it starts to value it as much as his own self (as his body), then the best thing for him to do is not to post an answer, but to see a doctor. A good one.

 

[Little Raven]

You mean you REALLY don't see any difference between your material possessions and your BODY ?

No, it's not that. I don't see how those differences affect my argument. If anything, the differences would seem to bolster my argument, since few people hold anything to be more sacred than their body.

 

[Akka]

No, it's not that. I don't see how those differences affect my argument.

Because it's a difference of nature.
In one case, you force someone to lend his property.
in another case, you violate the integrity of his body.

That's as much difference as between taxes and rape. Quite a big one, in fact.