Why would anyone support the practice of abortion?

[Aphex_Twin]

To me, it is obvious that if you have human DNA and the correct amount of chromosones (people with Down's syndrome being the exception, of course), you are a human.

Why is one with Down's syndrome a human then ?

 

[IglooDame]

Six pages? I take it you didn't see the previous abortion thread?

Thread(s)...

 

[cgannon64]

That would seem to include chopped off ears.

Only chopped off ears can never grow into a fully grown human.

Aphex: Well, I don't want to use the word mutation, as its harsh...

 

[zjl56]

I find this practice barbaric. No better then murder.

 

[The Last Conformist]

Thread(s)...

We should bribe a mod into merging all abortion threads into one, just to see how many pages it runs into.

And then close it.

 

[The Last Conformist]

Only chopped off ears can never grow into a fully grown human.

Neither can adult humans.

Seriously, it wasn't even implied in your previous definition.

 

[cgannon64]

Neither can adult humans.

Touche.

Seriously, it wasn't even implied in your previous definition.

Yeah, I know. I expanded it.

 

[Little Raven]

Doomsayers are always wrong.

No, they aren't. They're mostly wrong, which is not at all the same thing.

The history books are full of false prophets of doom, and it's easy to believe that because our civilization has managed to defeat every obstacle it's come across so far, we will surely triumph over every obstacle we come across in the future.

But look a little deeper, and you'll see that sometimes...the doomsayers are right. Or at least, we assume they were right, because records about doomsayers don't tend to survive the collapse of a civilization.

Yes, our civilization is smart and adaptable. I'm sure the ancient Mayans were too. Like us, they had overcome every obstacle put in their path, and I'm sure, like us, they believed themselves to be invincible. And they were, until around 700 A.D., when something gave them a rude surprise.

Yes, doomsayers are almost always wrong. But don't confuse "almost always" with "always." Unfortunately, every once in a while, they're right.

 

[Akka]

So you´re beign illogical and axiomatic.
You say that thinking and having emotions are a pre-requisite for humanity, but you don´t accept that the ammount of those abilities affect our humanity. That makes no sense.

Because I've already gone times and times again into this argument, and I'm tired to repeat again and again and again myself, so I do simplify. And I know that if I go in deep into this, it will ends up in a splitting hair session that will be completely pointless toward the actual debate.
So I make it simple : a person is the combination of a character, memories, the ability to feel, and emotion. I've no need to enter further in this, as an embryo COMPLETELY LACK ALL THIS ALTOGETHER.
So wether or not I make these factors a treshold or if I evaluate the "value" of a human proportionnally to them, is irrelevant, because in any case the embryo has a total score of ZERO in any of these.

There are many ways to use the body and the mind. Working is indeed one of them. To support a baby a father must use his body and his mind, and you agree that it´s within his responsabilities.

Rape does not equate to work, and neither does pregnancy equates to rape, even if both are uses of the body.

According to your own reasoning, "work = use of the body" and "pregnancy = use of the body". Well, rape is also using the body. Draw your own conclusion as to why this reasoning is completely stupid, and then it will by itself shows the absurdity of comparing pregnancy with work.

I'll give a hint : work is you using your body voluntarily. Rape is someone else using your body against your will.
Forced labor is someone else make you using your body against your will.
I'll let you find what forced pregnancy is.

It was not ridiculous, you just don´t want to understand it.

I'm not the one who doesn't want to understand.

"Backwards" is the part when there is disagreement. Nobody accepts that title.

Because it's a word that imply a negative value.
Forcing an immoral act onto someone is negative. A negative word is then in order.

English is not my first language and I have no idea of what a milliard is.

Well, I'm not sure it's an english words, in fact.
The problem is that the usual word is "billion", but "billion" means, in fact, a million millions. I don't know what is the really adequate word that should be used for one thousand millions, and I heard that many countries used, in fact, "millards", so well...

What I do know is that we can produce enough food, with our current technology, to feed many times our current population. I also know that only a fraction of the liveable space is beign occupied by humans.

In fact, most of the liveable space is actually occupied by human. The rest is space that can be occupied, but isn't easily "liveable", except by draining even more natural ressources.
The food we can produce, can be only by using artificial and polluting means, that are in the end draining the natural ressources and wearing the Earth. As such, they are only temporarily usable, and sooner or later we will either dry out the Earth and die, either reduce the population to a level that is sustainable by the planet (or find space travel and dry out other planets).

 

[sabo]

Maybe zjl56 doesn't remember when abortion WAS illegal in this country. It worked out about as well as prohibition did. It didn't stop abortions, what it did was made women go underground in unsterile conditions to get abortions, so in a way legalized abortions actually probably "saved" a few lives.

Anyway, why are you so hard on the women here? Sure sex is a concious effort, but that doesn't mean they thought they'd get pregnant. I mean if you are a guy, look how many guys became Father's without wanting to, sex was concious for them too.

The only sure way to avoid pregnancy is abstinence, and that's unrealistic.

 

[Little Raven]

And now for something a bit more on topic:

I'm curious about the following intellectual exercise.

Assume that The Last Conformist suffers from acute kidney failure and requires regular dialysis. Assume that I own the only kidney dialysis machine in the state. If I do not grant TLC permission to use my machine, he will certainly die within days. But the machine is my property. TLC, being a broke student, can't even afford to compensate me for the use of my machine. Every time he uses it, he costs me money.

One day TLC annoys me on a messageboard and I decide that he can't use my machine anymore. Obviously, I'm a bastard, but am I outside my rights? Isn't it my machine to do with as I please?

Does TLC's need mean I have a legal obligation to let him use my machine?

 

[cgannon64]

How did the debate about how much population the earth can support start anyway? Did someone suggest abortions are necessary for future of mankind to survive without destroying the earth?

 

[shadowdude]

A question for those who are pro-abortion: When does the fetus become human?

 

[Akka]

And now for something a bit more on topic: [...] Does TLC's need mean I have a legal obligation to let him use my machine?

Well, I would say "yes". Antitrust law

 

[The Last Conformist]

[threadjack]
Originallly milliard=thosuand million and billio=million million.

However, due to an ancient translation error, billion came to be used =thousand million in American English, and milliard fell by the wayside. In more recent times, American cultural influence has reached such proportion that this usage has largely replaced the older one in the rest of the English speaking world. I'm mighty annoyed by this, but there's little one can do.

To my further annoyance, "billion" in American texts is frequently rendered as biljon by incompetent Swedish translators, despite this word meaning only million million.

In short, "milliard" isn't wrong, per se, but not much used in modern English, and thousand million is the most common meaning of "billion" in the same.
[/threadjack]

 

[The Last Conformist]

@LR: Any specific reason you picked me as an example?

 

[AVN]

Yes, there is : the fetus is in the womb of the mother. It uses her body. She has full right to have total decision over what's done with her body. As such, her rights supercede every right could have the fetus, even IF it was a full-fledged human being.

At the moment the fetus can feel I believe it has certain rights. Not more rights than the mother, but I will also not say that the mother has total rights, that she can do everything, because we are talking about another human being. At least that's my opinion.

BTW : Do you know when (after how many months) an embryo becomes a fetus ?

 

[Little Raven]

Well, I would say "yes". Antitrust law

Hmm..maybe antitrust law works differently in France, but I don't think it would save TLC over here.

First of all, in order for antitrust law to apply at all, I have to be marketing a service. There is no assumption that I am. I may simply have the machine in my basement for my own personal use and the use of my friends.

Second, I am not preventing TLC from building his own machine or getting treatment from someone else. The fact that there is no one else who can give him this treatment sucks for TLC, but how is that my fault? Why should I be penalized for his unfortunate position?

 

[Akka]

At the moment the fetus can feel I believe it has certain rights. Not more rights than the mother, but I will also not say that the mother has total rights, that she can do everything, because we are talking about another human being. At least that's my opinion.

It's a position that I can accept. There is a big grey area here, and I'm not set particularly in any way.

BTW : Do you know when (after how many months) an embryo becomes a fetus ?

About a trimester. 10 or 12 weeks.

 

[Vanadorn]

Originally by Zjil

I find this practice barbaric. No better then murder.

The online version of fingers in the ears, tongue out, and saying "Nyah, nyah. Because I said so."

So far you've added little to the discussion on a matter that is important and very pertinent to many of the older posters who have taken the time to write their comments and feelings down.

However, if your goal is to add to your post count and have a thread you started grow in pages, especially with a little searching, you could have just added to the other existing one that ended less than a month or two ago, then please, consider this my last view and post here. I will not add nor partake in this, especially if you cannot see the gravity of the subject at hand.

Withdrawing my 2 cents - it's better spent elsewhere.