Will it be steam based?

[Chalks]

And to those of you who keep pointing out that steam can be required even on a boxed copy completely miss the point - there are those of us who want a boxed copy THAT DOES NOT REQUIRE STEAM;

No, I'm not missing the point of people saying "I prefer a hard copy" if a hard copy is possible. If they said "I want a copy that does not require steam" then I'd be missing the point. But that's not what they're saying, they're saying they want a hard copy. Maybe they also don't want steam, but the hard copy part of it is utterly irrelevant, so why mention it unless you are under the mistaken impression that steam means no hard copy?

I want to go without steam simply because I want to manage my games myself; I don't want another application running in the background, and I don't want to have to launch through another application.

That is completely arbitrary. Why don't you want to? What if the game has an auto updating patcher that the game runs through, then what? Do you object to this too on the same grounds? Because what, running a binary through a launcher is bad for some reason?

Steam currently has a memory footprint on my system of 15mb. Barely even a blip - so I know you're not coming from a resource hog perspective. It adds no significant loading time onto games, so you're not coming from that perspective either. It doesn't have to load on startup so you're not coming from the perspective of disliking superfluous memory resident processes. You don't even need to load the game through the steam interface, since a normal shortcut to the game works just fine and gets installed on your desktop by default.

So what is it?

 

[Arakhor]

Can we stop with the Steam lovefest? Some people don't like Steam; some people have never used Steam; not everybody either needs to or wants to.

 

[deanej]

I don't like having extra applications running in the background regardless of memory usage - call it OCD if you want. Maybe my perspective is skewed by the fact that civ is the only game I play.

I didn't know the normal shortcut works (don't use steam). I use Vista's (soon to be 7's) games explorer, which has the added benefit of being able to right click on the icon and select which mod I want to run (I have it configured to display as a menu on the start menu, so I don't even need to open it up). I've always thought of games as just like another system application in terms of management, not a special category in and of themselves.

 

[The_J]

Agree with deanej .

I have never lost a CD nor a CD key. I find it extremely difficult to lose a CD key with hard copies of games because it's extremely easy to put the cd key in the box . Sometimes I might temporarily "misplace" a game box but that isn't any more likely than me losing an email or some other thing that has a key in it.

has also never happened to me.


And the point is also:
If i lose my disc/cd key, it's my fault.

If my internet connection crashes, if the additional needed programs/services do not work, if the servers are down, so i can't play my game, it's not my fault, and i'll become sure f***ing angry because of that.

My CD, my control.

 

[Chalks]

Can we stop with the Steam lovefest? Some people don't like Steam; some people have never used Steam; not everybody either needs to or wants to.

I think you may be in the wrong thread...

I don't like having extra applications running in the background regardless of memory usage - call it OCD if you want. Maybe my perspective is skewed by the fact that civ is the only game I play.

I didn't know the normal shortcut works (don't use steam). I use Vista's (soon to be 7's) games explorer, which has the added benefit of being able to right click on the icon and select which mod I want to run (I have it configured to display as a menu on the start menu, so I don't even need to open it up). I've always thought of games as just like another system application in terms of management, not a special category in and of themselves.

Go buy the orange box. Fantastic value of great games that no gamer should be without - and as an additional bonus, you'll get a taste of how steam works.

For me, it just sits in my system tray and I play my steam games as if it wasn't there. Why do I keep it in my system tray loading on start up? Partly because of the auto patching, but also because I load up the main steam window every few days to check what's on offer. Picking up a really great game for like 75% off is worth 15mb out of my 8 gb.

 

[Badesumofu]

Also, being able to pick up older games for as little as $5 makes up for not being able to resell games, imo. Not that I ever do resell games.

It's not at all clear (as some would like to pretend) that you have the right to resell your games anyway. Not at all clear.

And for the 50th time, if your internet connection goes down, or Steam servers have some downtime, it does not affect your ability to play your games. Offline mode. I'm not exactly sure how long you can go without having to actually log on, but I've had 2 week stints of no internet on a few occaisions recently, and they did not affect my ability to play my games.

For those people without internet connections, all you need to be able to do when buying a boxed copy of a game that requires Steam is log on to the internet once to activate the new game. This is not uncommon these days. Take a look at what Ubisoft are trying to force onto their customers now. That is some outrageous s***.

 

[Afforess]

This post is to clear up information about Steam, since 90% of you seem to be misinformed. This is a list of what steam is and isn't; nothing more, nothing less.

Steam & Offline Gaming

Steam does not require you be online to play your games. It works just fine in offline modes as well.

Note: Certain games from Ubisoft REQUIRE you be online; this requirement is seperete from the steam requirement, and has nothing to do with Steam, but has to do with Ubisoft.

Steam & Digital vs Hard Copy

Steam does not care if you buy a hard copy or digitally download it. They offer both for all Valve games, as do most other companies. Games like Half Life are available in hard copy form. Certain Independent games are only available through Steam, but no big name games are.

Steam & Game Backups

Steam does allow users to install games as many times as they want. Steam allows users to make DVD backup of games, and has a rather nice utility for this.

Note: Certain companies, like EA, may have an install limit for games. This limit is has nothing to do with Steam, it has to do with EA.

Steam & DRM

Steam is not a form of DRM. You do not have to log in to play your games. It's a tool to allow the gaming community better organize through groups and events. You can create user groups and set up events to encourage MP tournaments.

Steam vs Retail Prices

Games on steam almost always cost the same as or less then retail copies. Steam usually has sales every week, especially around holidays. Big name games often are on sale as well.

Steam & Auto-Updating

Users can turn this off in the properties management tab. It's simply there to make it easier for users to keep their games up to date.

Steam & Reselling Games

Steam does NOT allow users to sell their steam games or accounts. This is because when you purchase a game, you aren't buying a game, you are buying a licence to play the game. According to Steam EULA, reselling this licence is illegal.

Steam & Delayed Release of Certain Games

Certain games have had delayed releases on Steam. Most notably, CoD: MW2. This has nothing to do with Steam, and Steam did have the correct date for the release on their store. This is because Retailers would not carry the game unless Steam delayed the release, because modern Retailers are afraid of losing their market to Steam.

Note:
I am not for or against steam. Steam is simply a tool to be used. Being for or against it is illogical, it's like being for or against the use of a shovel, or a pencil.

 

[apenpaap]

I have two experiences with Steam, neither of them in person and neither of them positive. First time I heard of it was here on CFC: some people who had bought the game through Steam and couldn't get a mod (I think it was either FFH or Star Trek) to work. I can't remember if they managed to get it to work, but it does leave a negative impression. Second experience (again, not firsthand) is with Tales of Monkey Island. You can buy the game both from Steam and from the company's own site, however: Steam took a few days putting new chapters up for download and you don't get the free DVD-copy (whenever they finally release that, that is). Now I'm sure there are people with positive experiences with Steam, but given the choice between Steam and non-Steam civ V, I'll choose the latter anytime.

 

[Senethro]

I have a laptop that is my primary CIV playing PC.
My laptop does not support an internet connection.
I want to play CIV5 on my laptop.

How do I do that if the game requires steam?

Case closed.

You call yourself a techpriest aspirant but you won't allow your machine to participate in the holy communion of the internet?

 

[Chalks]

Steam & DRM

Steam is not a form of DRM. You do not have to log in to play your games. It's a tool to allow the gaming community better organize through groups and events. You can create user groups and set up events to encourage MP tournaments.

Much as I'm bigging up Steam in this thread, this point really isn't true.

Although Steam can be used to manage any game and has lots of useful and cool functionality on top of the framework, such as chat and social networking - it is a form of DRM for many games.

You cannot install a steam powered game without registering it against your account nor can you buy a steam distributed game without binding it to your account.

That is DRM - a digital method of enforcing who can and cannot access your game.

 

[Afforess]

Much as I'm bigging up Steam in this thread, this point really isn't true.

Although Steam can be used to manage any game and has lots of useful and cool functionality on top of the framework, such as chat and social networking - it is a form of DRM for many games.

You cannot install a steam powered game without registering it against your account nor can you buy a steam distributed game without binding it to your account.

That is DRM - a digital method of enforcing who can and cannot access your game.

Not really; it's like saying all games have DRM, because you need to have a computer first to play them.

Steam accounts are free, and registering it is painless and takes mere seconds.

 

[wabatt]

Steam says release date is sept 1st... 6 months 2 weeks and 22 hours from now. Is the actual date or are they just taking a guess?

 

[Chalks]

..... I have the feeling you don't understand what DRM is.

Either that or I'm going to need someone to come into this thread and explain to me what you just said, because I really don't understand it.

Without DRM, an infinite number of people can play one copy of a game at the same time with no restrictions. DRM is designed to prevent this.

It does not matter that an account is free - it is about identifying individual owners of games and ensuring that they each own a copy.

 

[Chalks]

Steam says release date is sept 1st... 6 months 2 weeks and 22 hours from now. Is the actual date or are they just taking a guess?

Just a guess. They have said Q4 2010, so Steam has pegged it at the first day of Q4 2010 until they get a better date. I think they do it for all games that are added to the list with no confirmed date.

 

[deanej]

Without DRM, an infinite number of people can play one copy of a game at the same time with no restrictions. DRM is designed to prevent this.

This happens even with DRM. One guy cracks the DRM, gives his cracked version to the pirates.

 

[Chalks]

This happens even with DRM. One guy cracks the DRM, gives his cracked version to the pirates.

Any DRM that uses online activation as its verification method can only be cracked by actively preventing the game from contacting the verification servers. If the verification servers are required for online play, this aspect of the game is crippled in all cracked versions providing a significant deterrent or at the very least incentive to acquire a legitimate copy.

Anyway, I think you have misread what I said. I said DRM is designed to prevent multiple people from playing the same copy of the game without purchasing it - the fact that it does not always perform this task does not change its nature. A car key is designed to prevent people from just driving off with your car. Someone's ability to hotwire your car does not change the purpose of the key.

 

[deanej]

Any programming can be circumvented with enough effort. Clearly DRM does not stop people from doing what it's supposed to prevent. Therefore it should be removed as the benefit to the company is very small and the detriment for consumers ranges from a slight inconvenience to very large. All modern forms of DRM use invasive techniques (the same ones used by malware) to gain control of your computer; some are just do more harm than others.

PS: not everyone cares about online play. Also I can think of more ways for a brillent programmer to get around DRM that uses online activation that don't break online play.

Treating average users as criminals is not the answer.

 

[Afforess]

Treating average users as criminals is not the answer.

Playing devil's advocate here:

Why not? You do this to everyone else every day. Don't you lock your door when you leave your home? Don't you trust the average person? Why treat average people like criminals?

 

[Chalks]

Any programming can be circumvented with enough effort. Clearly DRM does not stop people from doing what it's supposed to prevent. Therefore it should be removed as the benefit to the company is very small and the detriment for consumers ranges from a slight inconvenience to very large. All modern forms of DRM use invasive techniques (the same ones used by malware) to gain control of your computer; some are just do more harm than others.

Not any programming can be circumvented with enough effort. Sure, client side programming can be circumvented, but good luck connecting to a server that requires validation that you are unable to provide. When you manage that, I expect your next move to be to clear out everyone's online bank accounts, since after all, that's just programming too.

PS: not everyone cares about online play. Also I can think of more ways for a brillent programmer to get around DRM that uses online activation that don't break online play.

Doesn't matter if not everyone cares about online play. The idea is to REDUCE piracy. Not be the ultimate silver bullet cure.

Also, there is no way you can get a client to play on an official server that requires validation without flaws in the authentication process. Your fantastic spelling of the word "brilliant" aside, I really doubt you can think of any way you can bypass client server certification because otherwise the same concepts could be used to break any encryption method used for any identity verification on the web. Banks, online stores... everything.

 

[deanej]

Well, in the case of locking up your home etc. it only inconveniences someone if they're doing something wrong.

There have been many cases where DRM has harmed legitimate uses. I belive there are many cases where people can't play civ because they have stuff like Nero. Many games can't be played if you have process explorer open. After I installed the Railroads demo (btw, demos still install DRM on the computer, it just doesn't check for anything before letting you launch the game), my XP desktop started having random blue screens of death on startup and shutdown. The DVD drive on that computer also lost the ability to read DVDs around the same time (it was a gradual loss, with the drive being spotty at first, so I'm not 100% positive that was SecuROM, but I consider it likely). The blue screens weren't fixed until I reformatted the hard drive.

@Chalks: I guess it depends on how the validation is set up. If it's server side it would be more difficult, but I imagine the validation could be spoofed with enough effort.

You're ignoring my point that pirates will just go without if they can't get an illegal free copy and would have to get a legitimate version.