Women in the infantry ?

What measure do you care for me to use? Equipment? Pay? Performance? Deployability? Force projection? Training lenght? Career Length?

Just so you know, there army is only 10K strong (or weak) overall, and 25% of that is conscripts. Again, surely up to Western standards, but nothing special.
 
Women are allowed in all branches of the Danish Army, including combat troops. We have all the problems described here; that they aren't fit enough, that they cause all sorts of problems, sure we have have those.

Why are they allowed in if they aren't fit enough? :confused: Are unfit men allowed in as well?
 
1.) While good I am sure, Dannish infantry is not on par with American infantry by any measure.
Actually, the truth is the other way around. I wasn't going to bring it up, since criticism of the US armed forces on this forum, is usually met by old military folks like you, with massive denial and lot's of "USA got the bestest of the best in the whole world, what so ever" But since you opened the topic, i'll show you how wrong you are.
Fact is that while the US army got some very good units, and the overall quality of troops is pretty good too, it simply does not reach our standards. The reasons of this:

1. Longer training. We do not send anyone abroad without at least one year of service. At least. Usually, the units send to do the dirty job, like the siege of Musa Qala, or the campaign in Green Zone, Helmand, are old time professionals with several missions with them.
The downside, compared to the US, is that we can't field as many as otherwise, since we spend more time training them.

2. Better equipment. The Danish army is small, and as such, easy to provide and supply with the most modern weaponry. We buy the latest and best from Germany and guess who, US of A.

3. More combat support per infantryman. Due to our small seize AOR and casualty sensitivity in the Danish public, we got an insane level of combat support. The lastest in EW and FAC is provided to relatively few users.

4. Less gung ho, more professionalism. This is hard to meassure, but fact is that the Brits prefer working with the Danes, and often put English units under Danish command like in Battle Group center, Helmand, while they can be a wee tad worried about going on patrol with reckless "cowboys"

2.) Do you have universal standards? .
In some units. Combat support like Signals and Logistics have not for an example, while Light Recon units will kick anyone out who can't reach their standards.

What measure do you care for me to use? Equipment? Pay? Performance? Deployability? Force projection? Training lenght? Career Length?
As I already covered equipment and training lenght, and fail to see how let's say pay, influence the quality of infantry much (Low pay means it's the stupid who joins, high pay means mercenaries who do it for the money only?) I'll move on to performance. The Danish army in Iraq and Afghanistan are called "The lucky Danes" by allied forces. This comes from the fact that they see lot's of combat, and have relatively few casualties, while still getting results. Sure, a lot of it might be actual luck, but don't tell me it all is. As for results, how about giving the Taliban a kicking in Helmand, while allied units were struggeling to hold their own?
Force projection? We have deployed to Iraq, Kosovo and Afghanistan for years. 1300 - 1100 troops at any given time. That's pretty good for a 5 million country. Especially in pacifist Europe.

Just so you know, there army is only 10K strong (or weak) overall, and 25% of that is conscripts. Again, surely up to Western standards, but nothing special.
How does the amount of troops, influence the quality of the infantryman? Actually, for a rich country, having a small army means that it's a lot easier to give it the best training and equipment.
About the conscripts, they're only used as a recruiting base (After basic training, they have the choice to sign up and be professionals). Since a lot like their time in basic, more sign up - more troops are eventually send abroad.
 
Why are they allowed in if they aren't fit enough? :confused: Are unfit men allowed in as well?
As I said in the part of my post that you didn't qoute, they are kicked out if the aren't good enough, and many are. Of course we don't know who are good enough initially. That's why we have a year to single them out, and tell them to leave, unless they improve themselves.
Anyone can join, not everyone go all the way. Yes, the amount of women who stop prematurely is higher than that of men, percentage wise. But the ones who stay are good enough.

In the basic training platoon I was squad leader in not so long ago, we send more than 20 percent home prematurely because they didn't have what it takes. Both men and women. Yes, that's a higher number than usually, but let me remind you that afterwards comes at least 8 months of additional training, with more people who stop.
 
As I said in the part of my post that you didn't qoute, they are kicked out if the aren't good enough, and many are. Of course we don't know who are good enough initially. That's why we have a year to single them out, and tell them to leave, unless they improve themselves.
Anyone can join, not everyone go all the way. Yes, the amount of women who stop prematurely is higher than that of men, percentage wise. But the ones who stay are good enough.

In the basic training platoon I was squad leader in not so long ago, we send more than 20 percent home prematurely because they didn't have what it takes. Both men and women. Yes, that's a higher number than usually, but let me remind you that afterwards comes at least 8 months of additional training, with more people who stop.

I was wondering why they were allowed in in the first place. Your post did not explain that. :)

I was imagining a system where you were tested before you were allowed in, not the other way around.
 
1. Longer training. We do not send anyone abroad without at least one year of service. At least. Usually, the units send to do the dirty job, like the siege of Musa Qala, or the campaign in Green Zone, Helmand, are old time professionals with several missions with them.
The downside, compared to the US, is that we can't field as many as otherwise, since we spend more time training them.

The training time alone before an infantry man gets to his unit let alone deploys in the USA can be up to a year in and of itself. That doesn't count the unit workups ALL units go through prior to deployemnt. The Danes are far behind in this regards if all they require is a year in service.

BTW, what desert do you practice in? How do you practice multi regiment coordination when your who army is basically a regiment?

2. Better equipment. The Danish army is small, and as such, easy to provide and supply with the most modern weaponry. We buy the latest and best from Germany and guess who, US of A.

If that were true you would have comparable equipment, not better. Of course you are using the export versions of everything you have, so it is in fact inferior. Not to mention you have less of everything we do unit for unit. There are whole classes of equipment you simply don't have in your inventory.

3. More combat support per infantryman. Due to our small seize AOR and casualty sensitivity in the Danish public, we got an insane level of combat support. The lastest in EW and FAC is provided to relatively few users.

This is not a good thing, and is so much not a good thing that as your wiki points out your army is staining itself to swap this ratio. You do make a good point though, that you guys are so small your pool of personel is reduced and incestuous. There is a critical mass needed to have a health officer and NCO pool, 10K troops for your entire active army let alone your infantry is well below that.

4. Less gung ho, more professionalism. This is hard to meassure, but fact is that the Brits prefer working with the Danes, and often put English units under Danish command like in Battle Group center, Helmand, while they can be a wee tad worried about going on patrol with reckless "cowboys"

The Brits like working with you better because you are submissive and cooperative, a symtom of being an obvious second fiddle. The US are the swinging dicks of thier areas like the British, two big dogs usually don't get along.

You might be the best JV team in town, but you are still JV.

In some units. Combat support like Signals and Logistics have not for an example, while Light Recon units will kick anyone out who can't reach their standards.

So in other words, no.

As I already covered equipment and training lenght, and fail to see how let's say pay, influence the quality of infantry much (Low pay means it's the stupid who joins, high pay means mercenaries who do it for the money only?)

High pay means officers from better schools, NCOs that can afford an education, and in general better recruits overall. It also means that people stay in and keep their experiance. And because the US in't calling a reinforced regiment its entire army, there are plenty of career opportunities available to keep that experiance in.

Force projection? We have deployed to Iraq, Kosovo and Afghanistan for years. 1300 - 1100 troops at any given time. That's pretty good for a 5 million country. Especially in pacifist Europe.

You might want to check how you got there. Hows your Air Mobility Command doing, I hear those Cessnas can be . .. .. .. .. . to maintain ;)

How does the amount of troops, influence the quality of the infantryman? Actually, for a rich country, having a small army means that it's a lot easier to give it the best training and equipment.

Because you are so small you are incestious. There is little opportunity for advancement, so few stay in. Those who do advance are a small group, if one leaves for whatever reason you don't have anyone to fill it without promoting early. Can your army even practice multi battalion manuevers by itself?

Size is liberating, and it allows for the incorporation of all sorts of capabilites that otherwise are not going to be available.

About the conscripts, they're only used as a recruiting base (After basic training, they have the choice to sign up and be professionals). Since a lot like their time in basic, more sign up - more troops are eventually send abroad.

It means they are not volunteers, and it means they very well may not want to be there. No US serviceman can say that, they are there because they want to be.
 
I was imagining a system where you were tested before you were allowed in, not the other way around.
The do get a medical examination before basic training, where the worst are sorted out. A year is a long time, and there's a difference between being good enough for infantry when you join, and being good enough after basic, or good enough after some months in the infantry. Hell, I wasn't in good enough shape for infantry when I joined basic - I became that.

We give people a chance to improve their shape. And btw, I believe the US army does the same. Only difference is that we got more time.
 
Ok, first of all your entire post is filled with assumptions that are simply wrong. I'll show you where, and hope you'll restrain your self next time.


The training time alone before an infantry man gets to his unit let alone deploys in the USA can be up to a year in and of itself. That doesn't count the unit workups ALL units go through prior to deployemnt. The Danes are far behind in this regards if all they require is a year in service.
I've been told by Americans on this board, and soldiers coming home from Iraq, that some US troops in combat units are deployed after around 6 months of training. That's from being civilian to being to being on the frontline.

BTW, what desert do you practice in? How do you practice multi regiment coordination when your who army is basically a regiment?.
NATO. Joined exercises. We have trained so much with the Brits and the Balts that we can basically assume leadership of their units, or join their units, with little trouble. Actually, in NATO Response Force 14, Denmark supplies the divisional staff and headquarters to the multinational division. We train this all the time, it works pretty well as long as it's the same partner nations you work with. Sure, it would be chaos if we had to do the same with Southern Europeans, whose armies are very different.

If that were true you would have comparable equipment, not better. Of course you are using the export versions of everything you have, so it is in fact inferior. Not to mention you have less of everything we do unit for unit. There are whole classes of equipment you simply don't have in your inventory
Assumption 1.
As I already wrote, a small army in a rich country is easier to supply.
While every Danish soldier, even the conscripts, homeguard and navy personal had optics, US troops in Iraq still used iron sights in lots of units, who still hadn't recieved them.
As for the export versions, we don't buy them if they are inferior. An example is the M16, which we buy from Canada in a license buildt and improved version called the Deimaco.
Besides, some things are actually produced better in Europe than in USA, if you can possibly believe that.
Finally, the few things that we due to our small seize can't field, the Brits supply.

This is not a good thing, and is so much not a good thing that as your wiki points out your army is staining itself to swap this ratio. You do make a good point though, that you guys are so small your pool of personel is reduced and incestuous. There is a critical mass needed to have a health officer and NCO pool, 10K troops for your entire active army let alone your infantry is well below that.
Assumption 2.
Oh it is defitnitly a good thing. It's modern warfare in a nutshell. The amount of combat support has only grown during the century - in all armies.
But nice to see that you base your knowledge on a wiki article :D

The Brits like working with you better because you are submissive and cooperative, a symtom of being an obvious second fiddle. The US are the swinging dicks of thier areas like the British, two big dogs usually don't get along.
Assumption 3.
I guess that's why they put their units under our command then? :lol: Look, we wanted battle group center, and we got our will, from the British. They send their guys to fight under our command, like we fought under theirs in Iraq.


So in other words, no.
So in other words, read what I wrote.

High pay means officers from better schools, NCOs that can afford an education, and in general better recruits overall. It also means that people stay in and keep their experiance. And because the US in't calling a reinforced regiment its entire army, there are plenty of career opportunities available to keep that experiance in..
Assumption 4.
What makes you think there isn't plenty of career opportunities here? First of all, we do not have the structure of a large regiment, but the structure of a small army, and as you might be aware of, the NATO structure is composed of multinational commands, with plenty of officers and NCO's working around Europe and elsewhere.
Btw, this isn't the US. Pay means less here, and our entire schoolsystem and society is different. Education is free, lot's of social security, universal healthcare etc. This means that the whole "No high pay, no good soldiers" isn't really as relevant here as one might think. On the contary, it means that our privates usually have an education before joining the army.

You might want to check how you got there. Hows your Air Mobility Command doing, I hear those Cessnas can be . .. .. .. .. . to maintain ;)
I thought we were talking about women in the infantry? Anyway, we're too small a country to move everything ourselves, so we lease planes and pilots from you :D

Because you are so small you are incestious. There is little opportunity for advancement, so few stay in. Those who do advance are a small group, if one leaves for whatever reason you don't have anyone to fill it without promoting early.
Assumption 5.
This is too far out, Im not even going to write an answer.

Can your army even practice multi battalion manuevers by itself? ;)
Do we need to? Read up upon NATO will you? We have units who function surperply around the allies we chose to work with. Under our leadership or theirs. We do both.

Size is liberating, and it allows for the incorporation of all sorts of capabilites that otherwise are not going to be available
Yes, so thank god for NATO and ISAF. We are grateful for US sattelites, planes and helicopters. As I guess you are grateful for our planes, helicopters and soldiers in your wars. But aren't we talking about women in the infantry?

It means they are not volunteers, and it means they very well may not want to be there. No US serviceman can say that, they are there because they want to be.
Assumption 6.
Since the draft period was reduced from 9 to 4 months, it has grown immensely popular. People go to the army - just to try it, with no obligations, and since a lot like it and stay, it's works as a perfect recruiting ground. In my platoon of 45 men, only 4 was forced to be there. Finally, drafties can chose to serve in the civilian homeguard and learn how to fight fires and stuff, if they don't like guns - or they can simply chose comminity service, so today they're almost all volunteers.
 
The unique problem I see is that a woman do trigger bad competition among men, don't know if in combat events it is such a big problem, tough.
 
Nice posting storealex. :goodjob: good job at showing so much restraint and decisive calmness in the heat of the argument.

+2 exp for Denmark. :D
 
The do get a medical examination before basic training, where the worst are sorted out. A year is a long time, and there's a difference between being good enough for infantry when you join, and being good enough after basic, or good enough after some months in the infantry. Hell, I wasn't in good enough shape for infantry when I joined basic - I became that.

We give people a chance to improve their shape. And btw, I believe the US army does the same. Only difference is that we got more time.

Our small army has a lot of Polynesians in the teeth arms.
Now the only people who play soccer in NZ are those who fail the physical for the chess team.
Each platoon has it's own rugby team.
Now, we Polynesians tend to be big men , average weight in our infantry would be up around 100kg.
So women averaging 60-65 kg are going to mix it with the men in rugby, in NZ ?
I do not think so, yet we have some who believe a lot of women could take part in this.
I doubt if the Danish men would want to try this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPDlAANjM5M&feature=related
 
Our small army has a lot of Polynesians in the teeth arms.
Now the only people who play soccer in NZ are those who fail the physical for the chess team.
Each platoon has it's own rugby team.
Now, we Polynesians tend to be big men , average weight in our infantry would be up around 100kg.
So women averaging 60-65 kg are going to mix it with the men in rugby, in NZ ?
I do not think so, yet we have some who believe a lot of women could take part in this.
I doubt if the Danish men would want to try this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPDlAANjM5M&feature=related
vikings_on_beach_big.jpg


You lose :D
 
hey, when has this thread developed into a "my army is longer than your army" discussion?
it's not the size of the army that matters, but how you wield it ;)
 
So Storelex, I see you are going with the fingers in your ears while shouting route. I presented you with common facts, not assumptions, and you failed to address any of them in a relevant fashion.
 
So Storelex, I see you are going with the fingers in your ears while shouting route. I presented you with common facts, not assumptions, and you failed to address any of them in a relevant fashion.

Patroklos, while most of the time you are reasonable enough, you often resort to calling things "irrelevant" when you dont want to address them, an irritating habit. He addreessed all of your points, I'm not saying hes right or wrong because I dont know either way but everything he said is relevant. i'm still not entirely convinced you know what that word means.
 
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