Wonder priority

[yatta77]

@yatta Yeah.. Space elevator seem out of your way when going for space but just the same I wanted to understand the dynamic behind it..

Still, call me a geography noob, but wasn't "latitude" going from E to W? So elevator should be built at the horizontal edges of the map, and not vertical? I could very well be wrong..

Imagine to slice the Map in 3 Equal slices: North, Center, South.
You can build it ONLY in the CENTER one.
But people posted there are exceptions (don't ask for the thread about it, CivFanatics it is the Chaos Anarchy, without saving the link somewhere, I never find again anything I've been reading earlier. )

East or West of the Map doesn't make any difference.

If it stills not clear, feel free to ask, (if I have time to answer) no problems.

Greetings,
yatta.

 

[iDagon]

Oh.. K. I understand where to build it now.

However, what I was asking was latitude vs longitude related. Wasn't longitude the one that was going from the ecuator to the poles?

 

[yatta77]

Oh.. K. I understand where to build it now.

However, what I was asking was latitude vs longitude related. Wasn't longitude the one that was going from the ecuator to the poles?

I believe this is better if explained in a better English than mine

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=189526&highlight=equator+30+elevator

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latitude

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Elevator

Hope those can be useful.

Greetings,
yatta.

 

[iDagon]

@ yatta

Yeah, I was confusing longitude with latitude there.. Thank god for wikipedia
I didn't think the space elevator was a real concept that was studied in like 1895 (!!). That blew my mind just as much as some guy that said golden ages stack a few posts earlier.

And about that thread on the space elevator..... A lot of what I read there confuses me even more.. Thank God i don't usually go for space.

EDIT: Oh.. Actually, it could be in the game with this strange mechanic on it for balance.. On most maps (I think) the middle part of the map has much more jungle around = less hills with production, so it helps "ecuadorial civilizations"® to achieve space.. Just a thought.

 

[yatta77]

A lot of what I read there confuses me even more..

There are exceptions, but AFAIK standard maps adopts the 1/3 rough rule I explained above, so in a standard game to simplify you can use that (if you really need a Space Elevator).
Greetings,
yatta.

 

[iDagon]

Well.. As I said, i don't follow space victory that much, and when I do, i don't get the elevator..
Also 90% of my games are om Fractal..

It is sad though that from the "real 7 wonders of the world" just a few are really usefull in Civ..

 

[champ82]

It’s funny – I think the three early wonders mentioned are some of the best.

1. TGW. why? Admitedly, I sometimes play without barbs, but even when I don't, they don't seem that much of a hassle.. At least on this difficulty.. Also, the AI seems to love this one a lot, even when barbs are Off. o_o

The Great Wall – On higher difficulty levels, barbs can be quite annoying. If you build this you can REX pretty freely. It could pay for itself in s spent for s not having to spend in units early on. Then there is the great spy. This bad boy can be used to steal 6 technologies in the early game and 4 a little later if you get a 2nd one. Focus your espionage on the leading techer, steal from him and then trade those around. This can be one of the greatest wonders.

2. The Oracle. Yeah, sure, you get a free Tech, but you also have to invest in priesthood path, witch dosen't seem that attractive.. Not as good as writing for your Civ and not a good Tech to grade as the AI gets it most of the time aswell.. The only time I want Oracle is when I go for a slingshot MC and try to nail mids of a great engineer. C-C-C-Combo Breaker!!

The Oracle – This is a gamble. It often goes very early. If you have marble though, going for priesthood may not be as bad of an economic decision as it seems, for it opens up oracle and temple or artimitis…if you fail Oracle you might still be able to get TOA or the failure gold from it. Plus priesthood is on the way to monarchy, which can be a big economic boost.

As just one example of the many ways this wonder can be used, the Oracle can unlock Code of Laws if you have writing as well – which can be huge but especially huge if you are HRE, Org, or in a position where creating a religion is optimal…then also you get priest to make the shrine.

3. TGL. at first, it seems awesome, but I never seem to get that much out of it.. Maybe I don't plan for it but I was never impressed.

The Great Lighthouse – Map dependent (as everything in this game is.) I play fractal. I didn't get into TGL until I played emperor...

REXing is simultaneously more competitive, important and expensive the higher level you play at...build this thing and coastal cities will pay for themselves immediately (maybe this isn't technically true in all instances but it seems to be in my experience)

Personally, I didn't really "get" the power of s for a long time.

Great merchants aren’t bad either.

Just be sure to
1.) Make sure to explore (or trade maps when you can) AI coastal cities you have open borders with.
2.) Have open borders with AIs.
3.) Be ready for a mercantilism fad to send you crashing at some point...

And most of all!
4. Golden Age wonders. Mausoleum and Taj. Why? I just don't understand this.. Golden ages are nice but is it really worth it pumping so many hammers in Taj just for a GA?
Or mausoleum.. How many GA do you actually get during a game? 3 at most, I presume. So mausoleum = Taj. Is there smth I just don't see?

Taj – I often build this because I pick nationalism from liberalism (because I don’t have banking for economics or optics for astronomy.) So…often Taj is built simply because I can build it and others can’t…

But let’s consider when this happens…around this time there are a lot of new civic options…also the extra boost from a golden age can help build 6 universities and Oxford, which is huge…also the extra can be good to pop a merchant to bulb economics if it is a close race…sure you didn’t exactly get a great merchant at no cost but you did deny the AIs from getting it.

MoM- I don’t build this one often. On kossin’s daily round thread, he did it sometimes to good effect.

Also, I see some wonders (sankore and angkor wat come to mind) that see much less love.. And in my eyes they seem much stronger..

I appreciate any words of wisdom..

You did not mention why you think Sankor or Angor Wat are much stronger.

Angor Wat is very niche…I think the burden of proof is on you to explain what makes it great.

Sankor isn’t all that by itself…in some games I’m barely building any temples. Coupled with SPI, Sistine, Spiral Minaret, or AP, Sankor can be nice… or if you wanted to stay in OR or Theoc for various reasons. Free Religion is often a better choice due to diplomatic reasons...when I was less experienced sometimes I let Sankor commit me to OR when I probably shouldn’t have.

 

[Tristan_C]

EDIT: Oh.. Actually, it could be in the game with this strange mechanic on it for balance.. On most maps (I think) the middle part of the map has much more jungle around = less hills with production, so it helps "ecuadorial civilizations"® to achieve space.. Just a thought.

Under the jungle is grassland. Equator land is the best! You can make a grassland city into whatever you need: hammers, commerce, specialists... By this point in the game you can quickly load your part of the equator with cities with 15+ workshops; using either SP or food/mining corps these things will create parts at breakneck speed. No need for hills. And definitely no need to do excess teching and get the elevator.

The leading conclusion was that the elevator is a failed asset in civ4- something that just doesn't make sense anywhere but in the most extreme cases.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

Sankore is good with pacifism or theocracy, too. It's not tied to OR.

If you have Sankore, you really should get the AP and Spiral Minaret - the investment for Sankore beakers really pays off with those 2 (and, to a lesser degree, Sistine Chapel - culture is all well and good, but rarely has a major effect except on border cities or cultural wins)

 

[Zechnophobe]

Great Lighthouse makes coastal REXing work incredibly well. Like... amazingly well. Be smart with trade routes, and you'll get lots from it.

Taj Mahal is basically a way to take production from your capital (or other wonder building city) and give it to the rest of your empire. It also comes from a point in the game where a Golden Age can look really nice.

Mausaleum is... a lot better than I think it gets credit for. It isn't great, and I often don't bother with it. But if you've got marble, and especially if you are philosophical, you can end up getting an extra 16 turns worth of Golden Age out of it, in the long run. Who here hasn't has 64 straight turns of Golden age stretching from Nationalism to... whatever victory condition they were going for?

Once again, they aren't game changing. You don't plan strategies based on if you can get them like, say, the Pyramids. But the advantages are often rather darn impressive.

Oh yes, and Great Wall does more harm than good in my opinion. Wasting your 100 point Great Person on a spy is just... awful. I'd rather build stone henge for crying out loud.

 

[ecuwins]

Wasting your 100 point Great Person on a spy is just... awful. I'd rather build stone henge for crying out loud.

I find this part about the GW to be most useful on conts, mildly useful on pangea, and bad when in total isolation. However, if isolated, you could use the extra barb defense right? Meh. I'm only up to Monarch, though. I can see how it might be useful at higher levels with certain maps, settings, ect...

 

[AutomatedTeller]

I don't think the pyramids are game changing. I don't think there is a game changing wonder in Civ IV, which is good.

Actually, I'm not really sure why Shwedegon Paya isn't talked about in the same way as Pyramids. Pacifism is probably more just as important to someone who is bulbing a lot as rep is.

 

[Zechnophobe]

I don't think the pyramids are game changing. I don't think there is a game changing wonder in Civ IV, which is good.

Actually, I'm not really sure why Shwedegon Paya isn't talked about in the same way as Pyramids. Pacifism is probably more just as important to someone who is bulbing a lot as rep is.

I disagree. Pyramids is +3 happiness in all your cities(at start), and double, or more, the power of all your specialists. That's a pretty darn different game you are playing with it, than without.

Shwedegon Paya isn't in the same league. The distance between it and Philosophy isn't anywhere near constitution and masonry. Also, the only options for governments for a long time is hereditary rule, which is okay but not incredible. Whereas Religion has Organized Religion, a pretty solid Civic all by its self.

 

[QuixotesGhost]

Concerning the Hanging Gardens, I consider it strictly as a complement to the 'mids. I don't build it unless I build the 'mids too. For several reasons:

1. You get it with Math, which is a very handy tech to get early for chopping the 'mids.

2. It allows you to hit the higher happy cap that you just got by building 'mids in short order.

3. Also builds with stone.

4. Allows you to stack GE points with the 'mids and the Great Engineer often pops just in time for the tasty aesthetics line wonders, wonders by the way that become really powerful when running Representation (doubly attractive if you lack marble).

On Paya, only really useful if you want stay out of a religion for diplomatic reasons. Be able to run free religion instead of paganism gets you +10% science, and a bunch of free happy. Not that shabby tbh.

Ankor Wat, strictly for religion heavy games where you just stack the crap out of settled Great Prophets - great production and tons of gold - often you can run your slider at 100% and have a crazy amount of hammers. Access to Stone is one factor that makes me consider a religion game, since a lot of nice religion wonders build with stone - the Ankor being one of them.

 

[ben-jammin]

I disagree. Pyramids is +3 happiness in all your cities(at start), and double, or more, the power of all your specialists. That's a pretty darn different game you are playing with it, than without.

Shwedegon Paya isn't in the same league. The distance between it and Philosophy isn't anywhere near constitution and masonry. Also, the only options for governments for a long time is hereditary rule, which is okay but not incredible. Whereas Religion has Organized Religion, a pretty solid Civic all by its self.

Really depends on the situation. Consider how useful free religion can be if you're not spiritual and trying to keep as many neighbours pleased as possible with their varying religions. +10% research is just a big fat cherry on top.

 

[Zechnophobe]

Really depends on the situation. Consider how useful free religion can be if you're not spiritual and trying to keep as many neighbours pleased as possible with their varying religions. +10% research is just a big fat cherry on top.

But you can also just NOT adopt a state religion to get all those diplomacy buffs. You get about 1 happiness per city, and +10% science. +3 Science per specialist is almost always going to be more than 10% if you are 'doing it right'.

Either way, those are both incremental bonuses, not game changing ones. What different play style does 10% science, and +1 happy give you?

 

[coanda]

Wasting your 100 point Great Person on a spy is just... awful.

I'm going to have to seriously disagree here. Assuming you have several neighbors, infiltrating with a GSpy is going to be extraordinarily powerful for early-game teching. Example:
Run an infiltrate mission on someone. Suddenly you have 3000 EPs against them.
Odds are they've generated almost no espionage so far; for a long time, they're likely to have less than 1000 EPs generated. So you get at least a 30% discount on espionage costs just because you've generated so many EPs. You also can easily get a 20% discount from trade routes, and a 50% discount from a stationary spy, and no more than a 15% distance penalty. Even without any religious or cultural bonuses, you're looking at 1*0.7*0.8*0.5*1.15: 32.2% of base espionage cost, which means you'll steal at least (1 / (1.25*0.322)) = 2.5 beakers for every point of espionage.
Since you generated 3000 EPs, you get to steal at least 7500 beakers in techs. Then you get to trade around the tech you just stole for some more beakers.

On the other hand, a GS will give you up to 1500 beakers (although the bulbed tech will cost less early in the game, so you don't end up getting the full 1500). The bulbed tech is often slightly more valuable as trade-bait, but not enough to make up for the fact that you're getting perhaps 1200 beakers instead of 7500 beakers.

This is not to say GSpy first is strictly better than GS - there are reasons you might prefer a GS - but if your main concern is keeping up in tech with your neighbors, then GSpy is the way to go.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

Well, that's a good point, that philo is easier to get to. Free religion isn't, of course.

I guess what you are saying is that representation is overpowered, which seems reasonable to me - I mean, I often never switch out of it.

 

[Um the Muse]

Oh yes, and Great Wall does more harm than good in my opinion. Wasting your 100 point Great Person on a spy is just... awful. I'd rather build stone henge for crying out loud.

I think that we're getting hung up on the wrong thing here. In the right circumstances, just about any wonder is great (except maybe the Space elevator, ). The point is that you have a clear reason of why you're building it and what you hope to get out of it that is unique or special.

For someone ready to use one, a great spy is a marvelous advantage that trumps any other single unit or building except maybe a few wonders.

Stone Henge is also great if you have plenty of land. As an aside, I've built SH with a creative civ to aggressively contain an AI's borders and was impressed with the results. Doesn't mean it would be worth repeating in other games, but it just shows you how important it is to use the assets that you've got.

It's too easy to think the smaller wonders don't really make a difference in how you play, but either you've just built a useless wonder wonder without thinking of the consequences, or you do indeed have a strong use for it that you can leverage to your advantage.

 

[ben-jammin]

But you can also just NOT adopt a state religion to get all those diplomacy buffs. You get about 1 happiness per city, and +10% science. +3 Science per specialist is almost always going to be more than 10% if you are 'doing it right'.

Either way, those are both incremental bonuses, not game changing ones. What different play style does 10% science, and +1 happy give you?

+10% science is pretty good.

It doesnt give you a "different play style," it gives you good bonuses without having to miss a turn of anarchy just to adopt a religion that will often have diplomatic consequences that can cost you the game. I've played many a game where I was never able to take advantage of a religious civic bonus until pacifism nyway because i just straight up could not afford to adopt a religion. It's quite easy to keep neighbours pleased without having a religion, much harder (sometimes impossible) to do with a different religion. So sure, you can just stay in no religion, but then you get zero bonuses. That affects tech trading as well as declarations of war, which does quite significantly impact your game if not giving you a "different play style" which is a strange way to measure how good something is. Plus the Shwadegon Paya is a cheaper wonder than the Pyramids with its production bonus from what is usually a more common resource. It comes at a time when your production should be higher and expansion is less pressing, and is in my experience less of a race against time to build (though its true that occasionally the mids will go super late, but it's not something you bet on if you're planning to build it in the first place).