World Wide Wonder

[cripp7]

When I went back into the save to have a look I noticed that Churchill does not know Iron Working yet, so I think there is probably a city that we haven't notice yet.

.
I didn't even notice that good call, there probably is a city in that one spot that's a little darker

Good point about Neapolis being a better production site, though Antium isn't too bad either with 11 at size 4 after which it starts to have food problems to get more production.

I didn't even notice that site in the East, I wouldn't call it really good, but it will certainly be a decent hybrid once we've consolidated our interior and maybe taken out Churchill (otherwise I'm concerned that our front would get quite wide and hard to defend)

both those cities will make decent unit pumps, I didn't notice the spot to the east either. And I wouldn't worry about it until Churchill's capital is ours

 

[ifinnem]

I assume I'm still up since no swap was confirmed. sounds good!
Will post a plan today hopefully (if I can view the save on this PC) and play tomorrow (when I get the other one back)

 

[cripp7]

I assume I'm still up since no swap was confirmed. sounds good!
Will post a plan today hopefully (if I can view the save on this PC) and play tomorrow (when I get the other one back)

I didn't think there was a swap? who wanted to swap? Brian is MIA until the 18th, so you were up.

Roster
1. cripp - played
2. ifinnem - writing plan
3. IPEX - waiting for ifinnem
4. Brian - MIA until the 18th
5. Stochastic
6. Thy_Spellcraft -

 

[ifinnem]

Ok good to go - lets get this show on the road

Plan
Switch to Rep
Micro workers (prioritize food for Neop and stop plains farms..., delay silver as happy cap good)
Set research to 0%, binary post Rome library Math->Aesth (ooh more shiny wonders)
OB with all Hindus
Rome: WB-> whip into lib -> Aqueduct
Cumae: settler (with chop)-> prob some scouting units (maybe an axe or 2)
Neop: Gran->scout for NW->Forge
Ant: Forge-> whatever we needs at the time
Will keep an eye on tech trade options once someone else gets IW
Next site is the FPs then prob somewhere NW

Did I miss anything?

PS: Only thing I'm worried about is Church so we need so axes/praets soon

 

[Stochastic]

Sounds good for the most part, though I don't think whipping a WB is worth it and I think it might be better if Antium built the scouting warrior for the NW after the overflow is invested into a forge, otherwise it will take quite a long time to get out.

 

[cripp7]

I wouldn't whip in Rome either, need it to grow.

 

[Thy_Spellcraft]

Agree to the plan but what's about the eastern coastal site I mentioned?
And I too think whipping the WB in rome would not be the best idea after all..

 

[ifinnem]

Agree to the plan but what's about the eastern coastal site I mentioned?
And I too think whipping the WB in rome would not be the best idea after all..

Ok if the vote is for no whip then I think lib before WB
On the E coastal site its not bad but I would not got for it
1) Stretches our empire and will add a lot of maintenance
2) Creates v long border with Churchill that will be a PIA during war
3) doesn't add much otehr than +1 Health

Will play in ~12 hours so any strong opinions should be voiced before then

 

[ifinnem]

INPUT REQUESTED

About half way into turnset and wanted to get the group's views on a key decision, i.e.
Whipping library in Rome. I think its the right thing to do because
1) Churchill already has Maths + stone for headstart on HG
2) Rome is soon to grow into unimproved tiles and library still 8 turns away (ie can't run spezies till then)
3) Whip anger is a non-issue due to happy cap
4) If we whip in 2 turns (@ size 7) we can get max overflow into an Aqueduct (some micro required)
5) Will have food surplus of +11 so can regrow back to 7 in only ~5 turns and be running sci spezies sooner than the slow build option

I know everyone was against whipping so wanted to check before going ahead....

Sorry you'll have to check the attached image for details as I've lost my imageshack password (still waiting for reset email - grrrr)

 

[cripp7]

Sounds good, go ahead. Too bad about Church with math, can we get any trades yet?

 

[IPEX-731BA5DD06]

I'd have to say NO, its like whipping away the Scientists. They work 2 hammer and 1 food tiles till the library is built in 8 turns, probably less with extra hammers. They are then immediately available for use as Scientists, without the need to grow the population by 4.

Working unimproved tiles for the short term can be beneficial, as long as you have plan to move them off soon (under 15 turns )

 

[ifinnem]

I'd have to say NO, its like whipping away the Scientists. They work 2 hammer and 1 food tiles till the library is built in 8 turns, probably less with extra hammers. They are then immediately available for use as Scientists, without the need to grow the population by 4.

How do you figure that? We will be able to run scientists sooner than we would by slowbulding a library. Please can you explain your thought process as I'm sure I'm missing something

 

[Stochastic]

How do you figure that? We will be able to run scientists sooner than we would by slowbulding a library. Please can you explain your thought process as I'm sure I'm missing something

I think the point is that if we whip now we will have tiles that have good yield being lost that we will want to regrow as well as grow some more to get the pop to work the specialists. I think it is better to hold off the whip for now and work plains trees until the library is done like IPEX suggested.

The HG is by no means lost yet, remember that we have industrious on top of the stone and forges that Churchill also has so we should be able to catch up with smart chopping and whipping even if he does start construction now. But that will require having max production available, another good reason to avoid whipping immediately.

 

[IPEX-731BA5DD06]

ON whipping, we need to regrow to run specialists as has been noted by Stochastic.

We don't get a bonus for building the Aqueduct, so by whipping we are sacrificing the 2 hammers per no improved tile we could use. Once we chop these tiles away, we can run them as specialist scientist.

Industrious with access to stone, we have Metal casting and Churchhill doesn't. 25% bonus Plus 100% Industrious, Stone is Neutral.

I agress, we'll catch up and pass Churchhill easily. We could sack the 2 scientists to run on a 2 hammer tiles for a 7 yeild (100% industrious, 100% Stone access and 25% forge)

7 hammers over the regrowth period?? 15 turns to keep the same hammer yeild, is 105 Hammers, whipping gives max 90 hammers, Plus we could grow those pop as well and work 1 hammer tiles for a yeild of 4 hammers.

 

[ifinnem]

2-2 votes so far, I understand the reasoning against whipping but think its not optimal

What we get from chopping
90
Earlier library for 6 turns of +25%

What we lose
2 turns working 1F2H + 6 turns working 2 such tiles = 14F + 28
Perhaps some yield from the tiles we won't work in order to run scientists with a slightly smaller pop (ie run scientists at the same time we could w/o a whip)

Surely our capital is so food rich we must take advantage of the F to H conversion at this city size ?

EDIT: IPEX we still have to build the aqueduct and libary w/o industrious or stone bonus so its 4 not 7

 

[Stochastic]

Industrious with access to stone, we have Metal casting and Churchhill doesn't. 25% bonus Plus 100% Industrious, Stone is Neutral.

Unfortunatly Churchill has MC too because of this trade:

Traded Church Alpha+Sailing>MC, Izzy AH>Sailing+Writing

but I think we should still be able to beat him still because of smarts and chopping.

2-2 votes so far, I understand the reasoning against whipping but think its not optimal

What we get from chopping
90
Earlier library for 6 turns of +25%

Assuming that you mean whipping I think that the earlier library basically means that we get to start building the HG (including aqueduct) sooner, it does not actually add any research.

What we lose
2 turns working 1F2H + 6 turns working 2 such tiles = 14F + 28
Perhaps some yield from the tiles we won't work in order to run scientists with a slightly smaller pop (ie run scientists at the same time we could w/o a whip)

Surely our capital is so food rich we must take advantage of the F to H conversion at this city size ?

EDIT: IPEX we still have to build the aqueduct and libary w/o industrious or stone bonus so its 4 not 7

On the screen shot it looks like we are currently at a pop where we are using all of our improved tiles. When it is time to whip the library we will have only grown once so we will loose an improved tile and one tree, not 2 1F2H tiles.

I'm not sure how long it will take to regrow those 2 pop, but I think we want to start hieing Scientists asap (for an academy) while at the same time building the HG so I think it would be a better idea to hold off on the whip until we are building the aqueduct so that the overflow goes into that for max % boost. Then build HG until it is ready to be finished by another overflow from something else.

 

[Thy_Spellcraft]

To make another input into the discussion: In case we don't whip and grow within two turns we could run an engineer as we already build the forge. So we wouldn't work an unimproved title and would get some more !
So my vote goes for no whip and running an engineer!

 

[ifinnem]

Looking good

So I went with the group vote and did not 2 pop whip Rome.
Here's the report from all 20 turns

IHT
Micro workers etc (e.g. why was the worker building a plains farm in the E? )

T121 Cathy will trade with us but don't see the value (esp since she declares at friendly anyway)
T121 TR fish for corn from Churchill (mainly for diplo)
T122 Cathy is WE of Izzy
T125 TR MC for IW + diplo benefit with Hammy (he has no writing so won't be able to trade it around for a while)
See first pic for whether we have iron...
T130 Found Ravenna (FP site)
This was where we had the whip discussion
T131 Decide to run engineer as GP in 2 turns sooner and still grow in 4t
T132 Whip granary in Neop (got some random event earlier which was -1 pop )
T133 Give church PH since he asks for it
Antium Forge in, warrior for CG in Ravenna then Axes (copper online next turn) for scouting etc
T135 Switch EPs to Hammy as he is the tech leader and we can already see Church's research (HBR)
T136 1 pop whip Rome (lib @134/135) which give us 85 into acqueduct. (Got Math sometime earlier)
T137 run scientist not engineer now
Hindu spreads - I adopt. Peace on both fronts now!
T138 to 100%, aesth in 9 turns
Whip axe in antium so we get 2 axes in 2 turns. Only whipping away plains forest tile
TR fish for pig w Cathy for diplo
T140 ready for run at HG...

Still no imageshack but see thumbnails for diplo, tech and land overview

Notes for next player
1) WB near Rome can be used to scout NW or on fishing boats (i vote scout)
2) Acque due in 4t. 2x chops (workers in place) + 6t @ 12 / turn should get us HG in 10 turns from now (4 + 6). Ie this means running scientists as we grow

Discussion points
a) Site for Sheep + silver city. I think we should build it on the coast (IN of silver) and have Moai there (see map labels for 2 possible sites)
b) Techs. I suggest Aesth->Curr (if noone else has it)->Lit->CoL->CS
c) Nat wonders. I think Rome gets Ox + NE, Ravenna gets Wall St, Silver city gets Moai
d) Rome suggested builds: HG->Colossus (if still avail)->Paya (maybe)->GLib->NE
e) Once our settler arrives from Antium I think he should go NW and delay silver sheep but lets see what we find up there

 

[cripp7]

To make another input into the discussion: In case we don't whip and grow within two turns we could run an engineer as we already build the forge. So we wouldn't work an unimproved title and would get some more !
So my vote goes for no whip and running an engineer!

Letting Rome grow up to the cap will allow 3 specs.

Notes for next player
1) WB near Rome can be used to scout NW or on fishing boats (i vote scout)

Yes scout with it, once a lighthouse is in there'll be plenty of and running caste we'll be pumping out mega with specs.

2) Acque due in 4t. 2x chops (workers in place) + 6t @ 12 / turn should get us HG in 10 turns from now (4 + 6). Ie this means running scientists as we grow

Faster research, need that

Discussion points
a) Site for Sheep + silver city. I think we should build it on the coast (IN of silver) and have Moai there (see map labels for 2 possible sites)
b) Techs. I suggest Aesth->Curr (if noone else has it)->Lit->CoL->CS
c) Nat wonders. I think Rome gets Ox + NE, Ravenna gets Wall St, Silver city gets Moai
d) Rome suggested builds: HG->Colossus (if still avail)->Paya (maybe)->GLib->NE
e) Once our settler arrives from Antium I think he should go NW and delay silver sheep but lets see what we find up there

a) 1N of silver would be best, will give Rome some water tiles also
b) I think Currency after Lit, none of the other AIs seem to be going on the lower tech tree. Lit would give us a sure shot at GLibrary
c) Agree with that
d) ^^ at least if we don't get Colossus/Paya we'll ge failed , I'd rather have the wonder. Keeping the wonders from the AIs will just boost our GPP
e) let's see what's up there, hopefully something good will be there.

IPEX you're UP!

 

[Stochastic]

I'm not so sure about the MC for IW trade, I don't think it netted us enough diplo benefit to justify giving away such a good tech for half price. Not much that can be done now, but I think we should talk those sort of trades over in future.

Other than that things seem to have gone smoothly, it looks like the scouting will be perfectly timed for the city after the moai silver sheep, I'm hoping to get out as many settlers as possible before the HG finishes to maximise the +1 pop bonus.

I'm thinking we should also have a few more workers, maybe a total of 8, to keep up with all the improvements. I'm Cumae could get one after the axe and maybe Rome could 2pop whip one to finish the HG.

Some micro comments: If we swap back to an engineer in Rome we could get the Aqueduct in 3 turns rather than 4.

Re the work boat I think it should settler the last fish so that we can swap the wheat back to Antium and grow it to size 5.