Would you spank your child?

[Hygro]

This isnt always true. You can still do everything 'right' and have a problem kid.

Actually you're right. You're doubly correct as you used quotes around "right". You never know what other causes, biochemical and psychological*, arise in a kid and cause trouble. I know enough folk who had/have serious issues in spite of good or great parenting to appreciate that kids can be the source of the problem. Such kids are the exception to the rule, but are not that rare.

But that doesn't make hitting as a policy ok. I admit I got hit a few times, probably countable on one hand. The times I remember strongly, they were not the solution, the times I barely remember, I have since forgotten because I remember they weren't teachable moments to hold on to.

I forgive parents who get drained and tired and even though trying their best, slip. Parenting is hard. There are times when hitting a kid is not that bad. But a policy of hitting a kid, an expectation to hit a kid under certain circumstances is wrong.


*It's amazing how much, in addition to other all other factors, borderline (test wise) hypothyroidism, infant-neglect, gestational drug abuse, food allergies, nutritional issues like needing extra b vitamins, can ruin a kid. But it's also very important to never excuse malice, especially willful. People who are off need to be healed, both psyco-spiritually with good parenting/moral-behavior education, as well as chemically that puts them at dis-ease with being a normal, well adjusted person. But in spite of this hope, I believe there are people currently out of the reach of the abilities of even the best parents, and as a society, just as we need to cure cancer, we need to cure the deeply malicious.

 

[Yared]

I remember my mom slapping me once when I was a kid after I punched her.

That taught me that she'd hit back and I refrained from doing that again.

 

[Akka]

But that doesn't make hitting as a policy ok.

I starts to be quite tired with this.
I'll say it again : considering acceptable to use spanking when it's necessary doesn't imply "hitting the child is my policy".
Need more straw ?

 

[Elrohir]

So "alternative methods of discipline" taught you to steal (take something you are not supposed to have)?

You think it's stealing to confiscate their kids stuff, as a method of discipline?

As long as the primary intent is to discipline them (And not to profit off of their kids stuff ) I don't think it's really stealing. The courts, afterall, fine and confiscate the property of adults who break the law, and most people don't call that stealing - it's the same thing, just on a less serious, domestic scale.

It's common sense that it is abuse in 19 European countries.

All 50 American states + the Bible + most of the rest of the planet > 19 European countries.

 

[PiMan]

All 50 American states + the Bible + most of the rest of the planet > 19 European countries.

Most of the world isn't Christian, so the Bible is irrelevant. Most of the world doesn't want to be American, so the 50 states are irrelevant.

Come to think of it, most of the world isn't democratic, so clearly democracy is worse than presently existing alternatives.

(In case you haven't gotten the hint, your logic is horribly flawed)

 

[LucyDuke]

You think it's stealing to confiscate their kids stuff, as a method of discipline?

As long as the primary intent is to discipline them (And not to profit off of their kids stuff ) I don't think it's really stealing. The courts, afterall, fine and confiscate the property of adults who break the law, and most people don't call that stealing - it's the same thing, just on a less serious, domestic scale.

The child that took back what was taken away was stealing, not the parent that revoked a privilege.

 

[Elrohir]

Most of the world isn't Christian, so the Bible is irrelevant. Most of the world doesn't want to be American, so the 50 states are irrelevant.

Come to think of it, most of the world isn't democratic, so clearly democracy is worse than presently existing alternatives.

(In case you haven't gotten the hint, your logic is horribly flawed)

Bill is a friend - we have this thing where I pretend to be incredibly jingoistic, and he pretends...well, is, all "YUROPE IS GRATE LOL."

But more seriously, I wasn't actually arguing (even jokingly) that it's OK because the Bible says it's ok, or it's legal in the US, or in most of the world, or whatever. More like, just because they don't do it in Europe, doesn't mean it's bad - that was the logic I was attacking, albeit in a sarcastic manner.

The child that took back what was taken away was stealing, not the parent that revoked a privilege.

I agree. And chances are, his parents bought that keyboard, anyway - so legally it's their property anyway.

 

[Narz]

So she hasn't really done anything to require much discipline, has she?

You don't need to discipline a little baby, they are too young to even understand manipulation until a bit after age one, probably later. They have needs, you meet their needs, you provide a loving & stimulating environment & deal with their problems. If you try to resist them or exert your will on them unnecessarily at that age they're be MORE ornery later, not less. There have been studies on this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attachment_parenting

I remember being spanked once, without a belt. It has absolutely zero bearing on my anticipating smacking my offspring.

A belt is excessive. You can smack a kid without a belt. I'm not looking to leave bruises or anything, I'm not planning a damn tables ladders and chairs match with my progeny. Nothing PC about it.

I wasn't thinking about you in particular here.

It's an option. If the kid never earns it, it'll never happen. If the kid earns it, I'm ready already.

What would a kid do to "earn it"?

Since spanking isn't beating, yeah, spanking isn't [x] beating.

http://www.answers.com/beating

"1. An act of repeated hitting or striking."

If you've never felt an urge to smack an urchin that wouldn't stop screaming about chewing gum in a public place, you're lying.

That's why you keep headphones in your backpack.

The root of the problem is that small kids' brains don't work the way adults' brains do. They have fits because they're kids.

They have fits because they're frustrated & angry & have unmet needs that the parents are either unaware of or are too overwhelmed to meet or the parents are of the philosophy that their will has to trump the kids will & their spirit must be broken.

As an example of kids whining over ice cream. It's 99.9% likely that, in the past, the parent gave the kid ice cream to shut him up, to reward him, the ice ceam reminds him of good times (perhaps one where his parents weren't ignoring him), so he asks for some &, if further ignored, he throws a fit until he either gets ice cream or attention.

This is oversimplified but the idea that kids naturally throw fits or that kids brains randomly cause bugging out is ********. If you think human behavior is random & that kids just randomly do things you shouldn't have them.

If the kid can be reasoned with, awesome, if not, you might as well read a poem to a horse.

You don't "reason with" you try to understand behavior.

Kids who throw fits do it because, in the end, they get something out of it. Period. End of story. If they never got anything out of it (either the hush-candy, attention from parents, something) they wouldn't do it. It could also be just to release pent up energy (kids don't like being sedentary). If my kid bugged out over ice cream I'd scoop her up (not roughly), bring her to the parking lot & ask her what's up. I'd also tell her that, if she ever did it again she wouldn't get to go out with me anymore, let alone have icecream.

 

[Narz]

Re : taking back the keyboard my mom took from me, I'm not saying anything was either right or wrong about her either taking it or me taking it back. I was just a kid & I wanted my damn computer. I was trying to lighten up the thread a bit.

 

[thekaje]

Kids are never selfish and after ice cream because it tastes good?

 

[Narz]

Kids are never selfish and after ice cream because it tastes good?

Of course they want it because it tastes good but if they know their parents aren't going to buy it for them if they bug out they wouldn't bug out. As for selfish, that's for another thread, I think a child beyond age two who thinks of only him/herself is probably the product of push-over, over-indulgent parents.

If their parents tell them - "Bug out & no ice cream for a year!" and they know their folks are people of their word they're obviously not going to have a fit. Like I said, kids have fits to get what they want. (that's why everyone does everything, to get what they think they want, as best they know how)

 

[thekaje]

Of course they want it because it tastes good but if they know their parents aren't going to buy it for them if they bug out they wouldn't bug out.

If their parents tell them - "Bug out & no ice cream for a year!" and they know their folks are people of their word they're obviously not going to have a fit. Like I said, kids have fits to get what they want. (that's why everyone does everything, to get what they think they want, as best they know how)

We adhere to very similar kinds of logic.

Similarly, if parents tell them, "Bug out & no ice cream & you'll be in big, big trouble!" they'll be just as likely if not more likely to listen.

If anything, this line of thinking vindicates spanking. We're both using classical conditioning: you're using negative reinforcement, I'm using that AND punishment.

 

[LucyDuke]

You don't need to discipline a little baby

That's exactly my point. Sure, you're a parent, but as far as this particular topic is concerned, you haven't gotten there yet.

What would a kid do to "earn it"?

Be a little jackass and not respond to milder discipline.

http://www.answers.com/beating

"1. An act of repeated hitting or striking."

Sorry, if you can't distinguish between a few smacks on the ass and what's commonly invoked by "beating", we can't get anywhere.

That's why you keep headphones in your backpack.

I find wearing headphones somewhere like a shop to be quite rude.

They have fits because they're frustrated & angry & have unmet needs that the parents are either unaware of or are too overwhelmed to meet or the parents are of the philosophy that their will has to trump the kids will & their spirit must be broken.

As an example of kids whining over ice cream. It's 99.9% likely that, in the past, the parent gave the kid ice cream to shut him up, to reward him, the ice ceam reminds him of good times (perhaps one where his parents weren't ignoring him), so he asks for some &, if further ignored, he throws a fit until he either gets ice cream or attention.

This is oversimplified but the idea that kids naturally throw fits or that kids brains randomly cause bugging out is ********. If you think human behavior is random & that kids just randomly do things you shouldn't have them.

Never said they were random. They're unreasonable.

You don't "reason with" you try to understand behavior.

Kids who throw fits do it because, in the end, they get something out of it. Period. End of story. If they never got anything out of it (either the hush-candy, attention from parents, something) they wouldn't do it. It could also be just to release pent up energy (kids don't like being sedentary). If my kid bugged out over ice cream I'd scoop her up (not roughly), bring her to the parking lot & ask her what's up. I'd also tell her that, if she ever did it again she wouldn't get to go out with me anymore, let alone have icecream.

Understanding the kid's motivation doesn't shut it up.

As for "if she ever did it again she wouldn't get to go out with me anymore", slow the heck down. You know damn well that's not what's going to happen, and she'll pick up on it pretty quickly too. Empty threats are insidious to discipline.

 

[Narz]

x-post, this was for thekaje

I don't believe in punishment, just consequences.

For example if a kid throws his food on the floor the natural organic consequence is that he gets no dinner AND he has to clean the floor AND pay for a new plate (if the plate breaks). This teaches him the value of food, the value of the plate (though not the true social, economic & ecological cost but that's a bit more advanced ) & how to clean dropped food off the floor.

If I just paddle his ass & clean the floor and buy a new plate MYSELF (and his soft-hearted mama brings him more food later) then he's learned that, if he's willing to take a spanking he can get away with being a jerk. Kids, especially boys, pride themselves on being able to take pain. Plenty of times I've heard guys talk about this wild thing they did & how their dad beat their ass for it but it was still "totally worth it"!

If, instead of an ass whooping their dad (for, say, taking his car & drinking drunk) forced them to go visit victims of drunk drivers in hospitals & never let the kid drive in the car again that would be a more apt punishment I guess & make the story into a shameful one instead of something to brag about to one's buddies.

 

[thekaje]

Also, some kind of prolonged deprivation of ice cream (which will take ages to make its point and will be damn near impossible to enforce besides, especially if your kid has even a single friend) is far too abstract and far less effective a threat than is a spanking/anger.

Besides, how many things can you take away for a year? You're gonna run out of things pretty quickly.

 

[bigdog5994]

x-post, this was for thekaje

I don't believe in punishment, just consequences.

For example if a kid throws his food on the floor the natural organic consequence is that he gets no dinner AND he has to clean the floor AND pay for a new plate (if the plate breaks). This teaches him the value of food, the value of the plate (though not the true social, economic & ecological cost but that's a bit more advanced ) & how to clean dropped food off the floor.

If I just paddle his ass & clean the floor and buy a new plate MYSELF (and his soft-hearted mama brings him more food later) then he's learned that, if he's willing to take a spanking he can get away with being a jerk. Kids, especially boys, pride themselves on being able to take pain. Plenty of times I've heard guys talk about this wild thing they did & how their dad beat their ass for it but it was still "totally worth it"!

If, instead of an ass whooping their dad (for, say, taking his car & drinking drunk) forced them to go visit victims of drunk drivers in hospitals & never let the kid drive in the car again that would be a more apt punishment I guess & make the story into a shameful one instead of something to brag about to one's buddies.

what if you whoop his ass and make him clean the floor and have him build you a new plate from scratch?

 

[thekaje]

x-post, this was for thekaje

I don't believe in punishment, just consequences.

For example if a kid throws his food on the floor the natural organic consequence is that he gets no dinner AND he has to clean the floor AND pay for a new plate (if the plate breaks). This teaches him the value of food, the value of the plate (though not the true social, economic & ecological cost but that's a bit more advanced ) & how to clean dropped food off the floor.

If I just paddle his ass & clean the floor and buy a new plate MYSELF (and his soft-hearted mama brings him more food later) then he's learned that, if he's willing to take a spanking he can get away with being a jerk. Kids, especially boys, pride themselves on being able to take pain. Plenty of times I've heard guys talk about this wild thing they did & how their dad beat their ass for it but it was still "totally worth it"!

If, instead of an ass whooping their dad (for, say, taking his car & drinking drunk) forced them to go visit victims of drunk drivers in hospitals & never let the kid drive in the car again that would be a more apt punishment I guess & make the story into a shameful one instead of something to brag about to one's buddies.

I'm okay with your logic in general, but you have a false dichotomy here. Why not paddle his ass & make him clean the floor & no dinner & make him buy a new plate?

And then you're talking about teenagers, for whom a completely different approach is necessary. We're not and have never been talking about teenagers.

 

[Narz]

That's exactly my point. Sure, you're a parent, but as far as this particular topic is concerned, you haven't gotten there yet.

No, if I haven't. If, when I do, I find the best method to discipline my child is to hit them occasionally (or regularly) I will come back & bump this thread.

Sorry, if you can't distinguish between a few smacks on the ass and what's commonly invoked by "beating", we can't get anywhere.

Call it "mild beating" if it you like but don't try to pretend it's not what it is.

I find wearing headphones somewhere like a shop to be quite rude.

Really? Rude to whom?

Never said they were random. They're unreasonable.

Not at all. There is a reason (not necessarily fully conscious) for every human behavior (influenced of course by sleep, nutrition, brain chemistry, etc.).

Understanding the kid's motivation doesn't shut it up.

A kid's not an it. And if your only goal is only to shut the kid up than perhaps hitting (or the threat of it) is your quickest approach to achieve your goal.

As for "if she ever did it again she wouldn't get to go out with me anymore", slow the heck down. You know damn well that's not what's going to happen, and she'll pick up on it pretty quickly too. Empty threats are insidious to discipline.

Of course it would happen. I wouldn't say forever perhaps but for a month maybe. I plan never to use idle threats. Idle threats are the #1 enemy of discipline (and a child's respect for you). (as you said)

 

[thekaje]

Finally, how on earth are you gonna make him clean the floor if he isn't a little bit afraid of you?

 

[Narz]

I'm okay with your logic in general, but you have a false dichotomy here. Why not paddle his ass & make him clean the floor & no dinner & make him buy a new plate?

what if you whoop his ass and make him clean the floor and have him build you a new plate from scratch?

Because whooping his ass doesn't originally follow from the situation. I wouldn't smack my wife's ass (well, in anger ) for doing the same, why should I hit him? I want my kids to behave like adults so I will treat them as such.

And then you're talking about teenagers, for whom a completely different approach is necessary. We're not and have never been talking about teenagers.

Since you mentioned this, what ages are we talking about? What is the ideal age for spanking? 3-10? 5-12?

Also, some kind of prolonged deprivation of ice cream (which will take ages to make its point and will be damn near impossible to enforce besides, especially if your kid has even a single friend) is far too abstract and far less effective a threat than is a spanking/anger.

If they want to sneak ice cream from friends, fine, but there won't be any in my house.

Besides, how many things can you take away for a year? You're gonna run out of things pretty quickly.

How many things can a kid want? Lots (tangible & otherwise). Ideally I'll mostly use positive reinforcement so all this threatening & taking stuff isn't necessary so often.