Would you spank your child?

[Narz]

Finally, how on earth are you gonna make him clean the floor if he isn't a little bit afraid of you?

How about out of love, respect & deference? You've been reading too much Machiavelli. He's not exactly the best parenting coach.

 

[thekaje]

I think you have a very pie-in-the-sky view of irrational toddler/child behaviour. I genuinely think a lot of this is genetic, and different kids respond to different incentives. I know kids who require little to no discipline. I did require discipline.

I am much more loyal to and respectful of my even-tempered, pushover dad than I ever was to my short-tempered, bad-listener, my-way-or-the-highway mom. However, as a kid, I definitely walked all over my dad and lived in fear of my mom. As a teenager, I walked all over my mom (who was no longer physically intimidating) partly out of spite, and I was a hell of a lot gentler on my dad. As an adult, I still resent my mom and have nothing but respect for my dad.

Now, I don't think either parenting style was ideal for me, but I think if either parent had been an intimidating authoritarian who listened, they would have had a much easier time with me.

The willingness to dish out violence doesn't mean you're cold-hearted and unwilling to listen. In fact, you can make it clear that you don't want to be mean. But it's important that the "offspring" know at any age that you can be really Goddamn scary if you're treated like crap.

 

[nonconformist]

Re : taking back the keyboard my mom took from me, I'm not saying anything was either right or wrong about her either taking it or me taking it back. I was just a kid & I wanted my damn computer. I was trying to lighten up the thread a bit.

You'd've done that and I was your parent, damn right I would smack you, since nothing else seems to get to you.

 

[LucyDuke]

No, if I haven't. If, when I do, I find the best method to discipline my child is to hit them occasionally (or regularly) I will come back & bump this thread.

I don't expect you'll find that. I don't expect you'll try.

Call it "mild beating" if it you like but don't try to pretend it's not what it is.

We're obviously not speaking the same language. At all. I'm not sure we're even discussing the same topic.

Really? Rude to whom?

Woah, you're serious? The damn community! You match the rest of that profile, it'd boggle my mind if you don't value such social trivia. Different topic, though. (Interesting, too, I hope it comes back up elsewhere.)

Not at all. There is a reason (not necessarily fully conscious) for every human behavior (influenced of course by sleep, nutrition, brain chemistry, etc.).

"Unreasonable" does not mean only "not caused by reason". You cannot reason with small children, they are unreasonable.

A kid's not an it. And if your only goal is only to shut the kid up than perhaps hitting (or the threat of it) is your quickest approach to achieve your goal.

Anything of an unspecified sex is an it.

Shutting up isn't the only goal, unless it's some sort of public tantrum - and I probably wouldn't hit a kid over a public tantrum.

Of course it would happen. I wouldn't say forever perhaps but for a month maybe. I plan never to use idle threats. Idle threats are the #1 enemy of discipline (and a child's respect for you). (as you said)

I wish you luck.

 

[LucyDuke]

I want my kids to behave like adults so I will treat them as such.

Children are not adults. It is utterly foolish to treat small children like adults, or to expect them to behave like adults. To a very minor extent, they can deliver maturity, but in general, they're children for a reason.

 

[Elrohir]

Because whooping his ass doesn't originally follow from the situation. I wouldn't smack my wife's ass (well, in anger ) for doing the same, why should I hit him? I want my kids to behave like adults so I will treat them as such.

You seem to be under the impression that wanting something makes it so.

Of course, you want your kids to grow up to be responsible, self sufficient adults. But they aren't there yet. Eventually, you stop using physical discipline, and resort primarily to reason. (And despite what you may think, reason and talking is always used in conjunction with responsible corporal discipline) You have to guide them into being responsible persons, and that requires teaching them that sometimes they just have to obey, even if they think it's stupid. If they can be taught that with time outs and no ice cream, then terrific. But lots of kids (Including myself) needed a few smacks on the behind to get the point across. I think you should remain open to the idea that the best method for guiding your child in her younger stages might be mild corporal punishment - you shouldn't rule out any tools in advance. I don't think anyone here is saying that ALL children need to be spanked, and certainly not all the time - just that spanking isn't inherently abusive, and can be often quite beneficial.

Children aren't adults. You gradually give the more responsibility, and more room to make decisions, as they grow older. But you're still going to have to make a lot of decisions for them growing up, especially when they're very young. Their brains are not fully formed, and they often aren't as reasonable as adults - and considering how unreasonable many adults are, that's a pretty low standard to miss. They earn adult respect by learning what it takes to be an adult, and putting those lessons into practice - they don't get the respect you'd give an adult until they can act like one, and they'll never act like one if you don't teach them that there are rules that adults have to follow. And you may need all the tools you can get to teach them that - or, maybe you'll be lucky, and you won't.

 

[Ulyaoth]

Exactly. If you think your children can act and be treated like miniature adults, then maybe you just shouldn't have any.

 

[thekaje]

I don't have a teenager, but I actually don't think it's necessary to expect teenagers to simply obey. I think treating parents like crap and being ordered around by them are very different things. Teenagers can reason, and tough honesty, I think, will prove much more effective with them than the mindless order-issuing and punishment schemes that are necessary for younger children.

 

[Grisu]

Doesn't exist when kids aren't ever disciplined.

there's loads of other ways to discipline your kids than through spanking...

 

[thekaje]

Yeah, I think it'd be best to move away from either of those two straw-men, the first being that spankers assault their kids and the second being that non-spankers exercise no real discipline at all. People have said this earlier in the thread, too, and it's worth repeating.

 

[Elrohir]

I don't have a teenager, but I actually don't think it's necessary to expect teenagers to simply obey. I think treating parents like crap and being ordered around by them are very different things. Teenagers can reason, and tough honesty, I think, will prove much more effective with them than the mindless order-issuing and punishment schemes that are necessary for younger children.

I don't think most of us are talking about spanking teenagers. Honestly, if they haven't learned by the time they're in their teens, then spanking them probably won't help them anymore anyway. I'm primarily talking about young kids - like 4-9 or so, give or take a little on both ends. Spanking teenagers happens, but it's far from typical.

 

[thekaje]

I don't think most of us are talking about spanking teenagers. Honestly, if they haven't learned by the time they're in their teens, then spanking them probably won't help them anymore anyway. I'm primarily talking about young kids - like 4-9 or so, give or take a little on both ends. Spanking teenagers happens, but it's far from typical.

I was mostly musing on your statement that: "Eventually, you stop using physical discipline, and resort primarily to reason. (And despite what you may think, reason and talking is always used in conjunction with responsible corporal discipline) You have to guide them into being responsible persons, and that requires teaching them that sometimes they just have to obey, even if they think it's stupid."

I actually don't think that teenagers just have to obey, but I'm not sure if you meant your comments to apply to teenagers.

I did not think you or anyone else believed that spanking teenagers makes any sense. I was talking about the need for completely different approaches toward the two age groups.

 

[Thoughtful Thug]

I would spank a child as to inflict a certain amount of pain to help remind him or her that the action can lead to even serious physical harm . Take a picture of a child reaching his or her hand toward a electric (i dont have gas) stove while still burning. To inflict pain as to prevent future actions in a early child development is something usually what children normally learn in these given cases. Pain and pleasure.

As for punishment, regarding taking things from them or confining them in a place for a certain amount of time has to be only on the basis if they are going to harm themselves or others by either a piece of an object, or disregarding for a rule in a area that requires careful behavior that merit respect.

 

[Zebra 9]

You think it's stealing to confiscate their kids stuff, as a method of discipline?

As long as the primary intent is to discipline them (And not to profit off of their kids stuff ) I don't think it's really stealing. The courts, afterall, fine and confiscate the property of adults who break the law, and most people don't call that stealing - it's the same thing, just on a less serious, domestic scale.

You misunderstood my post. I think the exact opposite. I think Narz's post shows that "alternative methods" can have negative effects. Him taking his keyboard when he wasn't supposed to have it is the same as theft IMO. I admit to doing similar stuff.

I don't believe in punishment, just consequences.

For example if a kid throws his food on the floor the natural organic consequence is that he gets no dinner AND he has to clean the floor AND pay for a new plate (if the plate breaks). This teaches him the value of food, the value of the plate (though not the true social, economic & ecological cost but that's a bit more advanced ) & how to clean dropped food off the floor.

Totally agree, but what do you do if they do not comply?

 

[PlutonianEmpire]

I'd use nuclear weapons.

 

[Narz]

I think you have a very pie-in-the-sky view of irrational toddler/child behaviour.

We'll see, won't we (assuming my woman decides to live with me instead of being a single mother, I'm not keen on playing the weekend dad role, it's a horrible, horrible experience actually & I wouldn't wish it on anyone).

Either way I'll bump this in a few years if I remember.

The willingness to dish out violence doesn't mean you're cold-hearted and unwilling to listen. In fact, you can make it clear that you don't want to be mean. But it's important that the "offspring" know at any age that you can be really Goddamn scary if you're treated like crap.

Personally, I don't want my kids to ever see me when I'm "Goddamn scary" (unless a mugger tries to attack me when I'm with them or something).

I don't expect you'll find that. I don't expect you'll try.

You're right, I'm sure I won't.

We're obviously not speaking the same language. At all. I'm not sure we're even discussing the same topic.

When I think spanking, I think bending a kid over your knee & giving them a pre-detirmined number of open hand slaps (or you could use a paddle or belt) to the rump. What were you talking about?

Woah, you're serious? The damn community! You match the rest of that profile, it'd boggle my mind if you don't value such social trivia. Different topic, though. (Interesting, too, I hope it comes back up elsewhere.)

Start a poll, I'm curious now!

If someone got offended I was wearing headphones in a public place I would find them quite strange (well, an antique store or something but not a supermarket or subway car). Now if you're totally oblivious to all but your music & almost bumping into people that's a different story. Also if your music is so loud as to be annoying others.

"Unreasonable" does not mean only "not caused by reason". You cannot reason with small children, they are unreasonable.

Their actions still have causes, it's not just random behavior.

Anything of an unspecified sex is an it.

Maybe gramaticly true, dunno. I usually try not to speak that way though as I think it's dehumanizing.

Shutting up isn't the only goal, unless it's some sort of public tantrum - and I probably wouldn't hit a kid over a public tantrum.

What would you hit a kid over (as a specific example)?

I wish you luck.

Thanks, I'm gonna need it! If I even get the chance to play the roll of a real dad I'll consider myself very lucky.

Note : missed some points, re : them : a child isn't an adult but, IME, if you treat someone as if they're mature they often rise to your standards (within reason). If you view a kid as a little disaster waiting to happen he or she usually doesn't disappoint you. I'm not going to expect my kids to understand everything I say but they'll listen to me out of respect & deference because I'm their father & they want my approval & they know I have their best interests at heart. If (when) they don't then I work from there on a situation by situation basis. Generally my first question (to myself as they won't understand themselves that well yet, though I will also ask them) when they misbehave will be "why?" as opposed to "how do I punish this?".

You'd've done that and I was your parent, damn right I would smack you, since nothing else seems to get to you.

You wouldn't smack me because you never would've found out and anyway, by that time I was already 14 and bigger that either of me parents (though I probably wouldn't have hit back the threat was always there).

You misunderstood my post. I think the exact opposite. I think Narz's post shows that "alternative methods" can have negative effects. Him taking his keyboard when he wasn't supposed to have it is the same as theft IMO. I admit to doing similar stuff.

A ridiculous jump (because my parents didn't hit me I took back a keyboard for my computer 10 years later).

Anywayz, my mother did use physical force to restrain me against my will. In fact she did it on a regular basis for half-hour at a time, IIRC. I hated it passionately. It was called "holding", I was five. I consider it far worse than spanking actually (you hold the child down against his will whether he has done anything wrong or not, if he struggles you continue to hold him down, eventually most children just give up & resign themselves to it). I'll try to look up the author & find the book, my mom remembers because the author was the mother of another boy in my kindergarden.

Totally agree, but what do you do if they do not comply?

If they don't clean up their mess from dinner they get no breakfast I guess. I except they will comply. I'll cross than bridge when I come to it.

 

[Narz]

edit : combined into one monster post

 

[thekaje]

Dear God, your mother held you down for thirty minutes at a time?! Did the police intervene?

 

[Narz]

Dear God, your mother held you down for thirty minutes at a time?! Did the police intervene?

No, how often does a five-year old call the cops on his mom?

 

[Ulyaoth]

If they don't clean up their mess from dinner they get no breakfast I guess. I except they will comply. I'll cross than bridge when I come to it.

NO BREAKFAST! What kind of monster are you?!

Seriously, all you need is your kid saying he's hungry in school and the teacher calling CPS on you.