WTC Mosque Part Four!!!

This is a valid point, but not all criminals are a part of a group doing these things.

Criminals are not legitimate government, check. Attacks commited against civilians, check. A simple mugging or armed robbery would classify as terrorism, not to mention murder. Or, hell, even the kid who punched me in primary school is a terrorist. And we're not even considering non-violent attacks (I mean, I consider burglary to be an attack on my property and my human rights, so burglars are terrorists).

As for the one that hit the Pentagon, Its still terrorism because it was also a suicidal attack intended to kill without cause.

But it was a military target! And the cause was alleged US interference in the Middle East. They thought they had a good reason!
 
But it was a military target! And the cause was alleged US interference in the Middle East. They thought they had a good reason!

Not really as there are a very large number of civilian employees that also work in the Pentagon.

In my viewpoint, military targets, while still legitimate targets per se (for military action), can still be the targets of terrorism. For example, the Marine barracks bombing in Beirut, Lebanon. The marines were attacked in the middle of the night, in their sleep, in a structure akin to a hotel, by someone driving a van load of explosives to the front of the barracks and detonating it.

Did this attack have a political goal? Yes. Did it have an affect on the civil populace at home? Yes. Did it use commonly identified terrorist weapons and tactics? Yes. Were civilians killed in the attack as well? Yes.

Thus its easy to ascertain that although the attack was primarily directed at a military target, it still carries all the specifications of a classic terrorist type attack. It further went down in history and media as a terrorist attack, and is still referred to as one ever since.

There have been other attacks only military targets classified/labeled as terrorist attacks as well. The USS Cole, and Khobar towers are just a couple I can think of right off the top of my head.
 
Not really as there are a very large number of civilian employees that also work in the Pentagon.

In my viewpoint, military targets, while still legitimate targets per se (for military action), can still be the targets of terrorism. For example, the Marine barracks bombing in Beirut, Lebanon. The marines were attacked in the middle of the night, in their sleep, in a structure akin to a hotel, by someone driving a van load of explosives to the front of the barracks and detonating it.

Did this attack have a political goal? Yes. Did it have an affect on the civil populace at home? Yes. Did it use commonly identified terrorist weapons and tactics? Yes. Were civilians killed in the attack as well? Yes.

Thus its easy to ascertain that although the attack was primarily directed at a military target, it still carries all the specifications of a classic terrorist type attack. It further went down in history and media as a terrorist attack, and is still referred to as one ever since.

There have been other attacks only military targets classified/labeled as terrorist attacks as well. The USS Cole, and Khobar towers are just a couple I can think of right off the top of my head.

@Everyone- Why do we have to debate the nuances of the word terrorist? We already know Al-Queda is terrorist, why do we have to prove that? Whether the Palestinian Government fits the definition is worth discussing, but we need to make some postulates first.

Such as:

1. Al-Queda is a terrorist organization.

2. Israel, whether wrong or not, is not a terrorist organization because they are a government. If they are killing innocents (Which I don't think they are) the proper word is genocide not terrorist.

3. Terrorism is not simple crime, there needs to be a political motive of some sort.
 
In my viewpoint, military targets, while still legitimate targets per se (for military action), can still be the targets of terrorism. For example, the Marine barracks bombing in Beirut, Lebanon. The marines were attacked in the middle of the night, in their sleep, in a structure akin to a hotel, by someone driving a van load of explosives to the front of the barracks and detonating it.

I don't know man.. they used terrorist-like tactics, sure, but those soldiers represented a valid military target.

If I was fighting some enemy, and had a chance to take them out while they were asleep - that would seem like a tactically solid option.
 
I don't know man.. they used terrorist-like tactics, sure, but those soldiers represented a valid military target.

Did valid uniformed military soldiers attack them? On a battlefield?

If I was fighting some enemy, and had a chance to take them out while they were asleep - that would seem like a tactically solid option.

If you were fighting to win a war by actually fighting it sure. If your doing it just to scare the folks back home into withdrawing support, thats another thing entirely.

Now thats a very nuanced view, and it may not make sense to you right off the bat, but often the goal of the attack also indicates terrorism or not. In this particular case, this attack wasnt done with the goal to win the conflict in Lebanon by killing US soldiers via force of arms...it was to send a political message back to the USA which might result in the removal of US troops from Lebanon. The terrorist attack was actually successful in its goal....not in a military sense...but in a political one.

Again, thats a very, very nuanced issue, and its not going to be obvious to a lot of people, but thats why there is a difference in this and say, sleeping soldiers during WWII being taken out by enemy soldiers at night. While the two may be similar in deed, the actual goals and reasons of the attacks are quite different.

Washington got those Hessians while they were trashed, after all.

A surprise attack at dawn using soldiers in uniform, in battle formation, fighting a strategic war isnt anything like a civilian driving a vanload of explosives to a hotel to kill hundreds in their sleep.

The Hessians did have some small notice of the attack, and did fight back, but were unable to form an adequate defense due to the attacks surprise. The marines never even had that much of a chance to react.

Its also obvious that Washingtons attack wasnt meant to scare the british into withdrawing from the USA either. The attack had no political ramifications, simply tactical and strategic ones for the war.

And frankly, its a tad bit insulting for you to actually compare the two...
 
Washington's ultimate purpose was to get the British to withdraw from the US. If the attack on the Hessians wasn't a means to that end, then why on earth do it? And wouldn't he rather use tactics that result in fewer casualties for his own side? Isn't that the mark of a good commander?

Also, why are you insulted by analogies or comparisons that you don't consider valid? Especially given that the only element of the Beirut bombing that I was focusing on was the fact that the soldiers were asleep.
 
the IRA carried out a lot more terrorist attacks in the uk than muslims have, same with ETA in spain so obviously we should be scared of the irish and basques
Many terrorist activities are casually dismissed by many who use it as an excuse vilify Islam, especially Christian terrorism. They try to add caveats so that only Muslims are singled out while ignoring the rest.

The Return of Christian Terrorism: Threats of right-wing violence have doubled in the past year. What is behind the latest upsurge in the movement to create a Christian theocratic state?

Spoiler :
When Scott Roeder, the murderer of Wichita Kansas abortion clinic provider Dr. George Tiller, had his day in court, he spent much of his rambling self-defense quoting the words of another abortion clinic assassin, Reverend Paul Hill. In the 1990s my own research had brought me into conversation with others in the inner circle in which Hill and Roeder were at that time involved. So it was a chilling experience for me to realize that this awful mood of American Christian terrorism—culminating in the catastrophic attack on the Oklahoma City Federal Builiding—has now returned.

Christian terrorism has returned to America with a vengeance. And it is not just Roeder. When members of the Hutaree militia in Michigan and Ohio recently were arrested with plans to kill a random policeman and then plant Improvised Explosive Devices in the area where the funeral would be held to kill hundreds more, this was a terrorist plot of the sort that would impress Shi’ite militia and al Qaeda activists in Iraq. The Southern Poverty Law Center, founded by Morris Dees, which has closely watched the rise of right-wing extremism in this country for many decades, declares that threats and incidents of right-wing violence have risen 200% in this past year—unfortunately coinciding with the tenure of the first African-American president in US history. When Chip Berlet, one of this country’s best monitors of right-wing extremism, warned in a perceptive essay last week on RD that the hostile right-wing political climate in this country has created the groundwork for a demonic new form of violence and terrorism, I fear that he is correct.

Christian Warrior, Sacred Battle

Though these new forms of violence are undoubtedly political and probably racist, they also have a religious dimension. And this brings me back to what I know about Rev. Paul Hill, the assassin who the similarly misguided assassin, Scott Roeder, quoted at length in that Wichita court room last week. In 1994, Hill, a Presbyterian pastor at the extreme fringe of the anti-abortion activist movement, came armed to a clinic in Pensacola, Florida. He aimed at Dr. John Britton, who was entering the clinic along with his bodyguard, James Barrett. The shots killed both men and wounded Barrett’s wife, Joan. Hill immediately put down his weapon and was arrested; presenting an image of someone who knew that he would be arrested, convicted, and executed by the State of Florida for his actions, which he was in 2003. This would make Hill something of a Christian suicide attacker.

What is interesting about Hill and his supporters is not just his political views, but also his religious ones. As I reported in my book, Terror in the Mind of God, and in an essay for RD several months ago, Hill framed his actions as those of a Christian warrior engaged in sacred battle. “My eyes were opened to the enormous impact” such an event would have, he wrote, adding that “the effect would be incalculable.” Hill said that he opened his Bible and found sustenance in Psalms 91: “You will not be afraid of the terror by night, or of the arrow that flies by day.” Hill interpreted this as an affirmation that his act was biblically approved.

One of the supporters that Paul Hill had written these words to was Rev. Michael Bray, a Lutheran pastor in Bowie, Maryland, who had served prison time for his conviction of fire-bombing abortion-related clinics on the Eastern seaboard
. Bray published a newsletter and then a Web site for his Christian anti-abortion movement, and published a book theologically justifying violence against abortion service providers, A Time to Kill. He is also alleged to be the author of the Army of God manual that provides details on how to conduct terrorist acts against abortion-related clinics.

Recently Bray has publicly defended Paul Roeder, the Wichita assassin, saying that he acted with “righteousness and mercy.” Several years earlier, another member of Bray’s network of associates, Rachelle (“Shelly”) Shannon, a housewife from rural Oregon, had also attacked Dr. George Tiller as he drove away from his clinic in Wichita. She was arrested for attempted murder.

When I interviewed Bray on several occasions in the 1990s, he provided a theological defense of this kind of violence from two different Christian perspectives. In the remainder of this essay, I’ll summarize from Terror in the Mind of God some of my observations about these theological strands behind their terrorism in the 1990s—and which, amazingly, are surfacing again today.

Theological Illogic

The more traditional Christian justification that Bray used for his violence was just-war theory. He was fond of quoting two of my own heroes, Dietrich Bonhoeffer and Reinhold Niebuhr, in what I regard as perverse ways. Bray thought that their justification of military action against the Nazis (and an attempted assassination plot on Hitler’s life Bonhoeffer was involved in) was an appropriate parallel to his terrorism against the US government’s sanctioning of legal abortions. It seemed highly unlikely to me that Bray’s positions would have been accepted by these or any other theologian within mainstream Protestant thought. Bonhoeffer and Niebuhr, like most modern theologians, supported the principle of the separation of church and state, and were wary of what Niebuhr called “moralism”—the intrusion of religious or other ideological values into the political calculations of statecraft. Moreover, Bray did not rely on mainstream theologians for his most earnest theological justification.

The more significant Christian position that Bray and Hill advanced is related to the End-Time theology of the Rapture as thought to be envisaged by the New Testament book of Revelation. These are ideas related, in turn, to Dominion Theology, the position that Christianity must reassert the dominion of God over all things, including secular politics and society. This point of view, articulated by such right-wing Protestant spokespersons as Rev. Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson, have been part of the ideology of the Christian Right since at least the 1980s and 1990s.

At its hardest edge, the movement requires the creation of a kind of Christian politics to set the stage for America’s acceptance of the second coming of Christ. In this context, it is significant today that in some parts of the United States, over one-third of the opponents of the policies of President Barack Obama believe he is the Antichrist as characterized in the End-Times Rapture scenario.

The Christian anti-abortion movement is permeated with ideas from Dominion Theology. Randall Terry (founder of the militant anti-abortion organization Operation Rescue and a writer for the Dominion magazine Crosswinds) signed the magazine’s “Manifesto for the Christian Church,” which asserted that America should “function as a Christian nation.” The Manifesto said that America should therefore oppose “social moral evils” of secular society such as “abortion on demand, fornication, homosexuality, sexual entertainment, state usurpation of parental rights and God-given liberties, statist-collectivist theft from citizens through devaluation of their money and redistribution of their wealth, and evolutionism taught as a monopoly viewpoint in the public schools.”

At the extreme right wing of Dominion Theology is a relatively obscure theological movement that Mike Bray found particularly appealing: Reconstruction Theology, whose exponents long to create a Christian theocratic state. Bray had studied their writings extensively and possessed a shelf of books written by Reconstruction authors. The convicted anti-abortion killer Paul Hill cited Reconstruction theologians in his own writings and once studied with a founder of the movement, Greg Bahnsen, at Reformed Theological Seminary in Jackson, Mississippi.

Leaders of the Reconstruction movement trace their ideas, which they sometimes called “theonomy,” to Cornelius Van Til, a twentieth-century Presbyterian professor of theology at Princeton Seminary who took seriously the sixteenth-century ideas of the Reformation theologian John Calvin regarding the necessity for presupposing the authority of God in all worldly matters. Followers of Van Til (including his former students Bahnsen and Rousas John Rushdoony, and Rushdoony’s son-in-law, Gary North) adopted this “presuppositionalism” as a doctrine, with all its implications for the role of religion in political life.

Recapturing Institutions for Jesus

Reconstruction writers regard the history of Protestant politics since the early years of the Reformation as having taken a bad turn, and they are especially unhappy with the Enlightenment formulation of church-state separation. They feel it necessary to “reconstruct” Christian society by turning to the Bible as the basis for a nation’s law and social order. To propagate these views, the Reconstructionists established the Institute for Christian Economics in Tyler, Texas, and the Chalcedon Foundation in Vallecito, California. They have published a journal and a steady stream of books and booklets on the theological justification for interjecting Christian ideas into economic, legal, and political life.

According to the most prolific Reconstruction writer, Gary North, it is “the moral obligation of Christians to recapture every institution for Jesus Christ." He feels this to be especially so in the United States, where secular law as construed by the Supreme Court and defended by liberal politicians is moving in what Rushdoony and others regard as a decidedly un-Christian direction; particularly in matters regarding abortion and homosexuality. What the Reconstructionists ultimately want, however, is more than the rejection of secularism. Like other theologians who utilize the biblical concept of “dominion,” they reason that Christians, as the new chosen people of God, are destined to dominate the world.

The Reconstructionists possess a “postmillennial” view of history. That is, they believe that Christ will return to earth only after the thousand years of religious rule that characterizes the Christian idea of the millennium, and therefore Christians have an obligation to provide the political and social conditions that will make Christ’s return possible. “Premillennialists,” on the other hand, hold the view that the thousand years of Christendom will come only after Christ returns, an event that will occur in a cataclysmic moment of world history. Therefore they tend to be much less active politically.

Rev. Paul Hill, Rev. Michael Bray, and other Reconstructionists—along with Dominion theologians such as the American politician and television host Pat Robertson and many other right-wing Christian activists today—are postmillenialists. Hence they believe that a Christian kingdom must be established on Earth before Christ’s return. They take seriously the idea of a Christian society and a form of religious politics that will make biblical code the law of the United States.

These activists are quite serious about bringing Christian politics into power. Bray said that it is possible, under the right conditions, for a Christian revolution to sweep across the United States and bring in its wake Constitutional changes that would allow for biblical law to be the basis of social legislation. Failing that, Bray envisaged a new federalism that would allow individual states to experiment with religious politics on their own. When I asked Bray what state might be ready for such an experiment, he hesitated and then suggested Louisiana and Mississippi, or, he added, “maybe one of the Dakotas.”

Not all Reconstruction thinkers have endorsed the use of violence, especially the kind that Bray and Hill have justified. As Reconstruction author Gary North admitted, “there is a division in the theonomic camp” over violence, especially with regard to anti-abortion activities. Some months before Paul Hill killed Dr. Britton and his escort, Hill (apparently hoping for Gary North’s approval in advance) sent a letter to North along with a draft of an essay he had written justifying the possibility of such killings in part on theonomic grounds. North ultimately responded, but only after the murders had been committed.

North regretted that he was too late to deter Hill from his “terrible direction” and chastised Hill in an open letter, published as a booklet, denouncing Hill’s views as “vigilante theology.” According to North, biblical law provides exceptions to the commandment “Thou shalt not kill” (Ex 20:13), but in terms similar to just-war doctrine: when one is authorized to do so by “a covenantal agent” in wartime, to defend one’s household, to execute a convicted criminal, to avenge the death of one’s kin, to save an entire nation, or to stop moral transgressors from bringing bloodguilt on an entire community.

Hill, joined by Bray, responded to North’s letter. They argued that many of those conditions applied to the abortion situation in the United States. Writing from his prison cell in Starke, Florida, Paul Hill said that the biblical commandment against murder also “requires using the means necessary to defend against murder—including lethal force.” He went on to say that he regarded “the cutting edge of Satan’s current attack” to be “the abortionist’s knife,” and therefore his actions had ultimate theological significance.

Bray, in his book, A Time to Kill, spoke to North’s concern about the authorization of violence by a legitimate authority or “a covenental agent,” as North put it. Bray raised the possibility of a “righteous rebellion.” Just as liberation theologians justify the use of unauthorized force for the sake of their vision of a moral order, Bray saw the legitimacy of using violence not only to resist what he regarded as murder—abortion—but also to help bring about the Christian political order envisioned by the radical dominion theology thinkers. In Bray’s mind, a little violence was a small price to pay for the possibility of fulfilling God’s law and establishing His kingdom on earth.

For most of the rest of us, even a little violence is a price too high to pay for these fantastic visions of Christian politics and for America’s recent return to Christian terrorism.
There really is no difference in any form of religious terrorism, whether it is Muslim, Christian, or even Jewish. There are fanatics in any religion who are willing to use any means to further their own religious and political beliefs.
 
There really is no difference in any form of religious terrorism, whether it is Muslim, Christian, or even Jewish. There are fanatics in any religion.

I agree with this.

However, it is usually Islam. Its rather unfair to the moderates actually to be put in a bad light over something they have no control over and is not their fault.
 
If you were fighting to win a war by actually fighting it sure. If your doing it just to scare the folks back home into withdrawing support, thats another thing entirely.

Now thats a very nuanced view, and it may not make sense to you right off the bat, but often the goal of the attack also indicates terrorism or not. In this particular case, this attack wasnt done with the goal to win the conflict in Lebanon by killing US soldiers via force of arms...it was to send a political message back to the USA which might result in the removal of US troops from Lebanon. The terrorist attack was actually successful in its goal....not in a military sense...but in a political one.

Some of that is true, but

Every single military attack is meant to not only achieve its objectives, but also to scare the other side. I mean, hey, that'd be bonus if they got scared, right? Even more bonus if they withdrew from the country as a result.
 
Damn. This thread is still going? Has anything significant happened in the last 700 posts worth reading, or are we still hashing out the same points of view?
 
Washington's ultimate purpose was to get the British to withdraw from the US. If the attack on the Hessians wasn't a means to that end, then why on earth do it?

Well, as he, and the rest of the continental army had decided on how that purpose was going to take place....by force of arms on the battlefield.

Another thing I forgot to mention that the attack on the marine barracks also something found in whats called asymetrical warfare (terrorism is a facet of that), considering Washingtons men were in uniform, in formation, and identifying themselves as the enemy the entire time, you cant even really suggest this was somehow terrorism and it surely wasnt an application of asymetrical warfare.

And wouldn't he rather use tactics that result in fewer casualties for his own side? Isn't that the mark of a good commander?

Then he could have sent a spy in and poisoned the town well to kill the Hessians (along with a bunch of civilians) or something similar couldnt he?

But he didnt.

Seriously, Eran.

Also, why are you insulted by analogies or comparisons that you don't consider valid?

'Cause it pisses me off to think young americans compare Washington to some dirty terrorist. There is definitely something wrong with that and it upsets me to see it occur. I liken it to hatred of the nation to be honest. Thats why.

Especially given that the only element of the Beirut bombing that I was focusing on was the fact that the soldiers were asleep.

The hessians werent killed in their beds asleep. Nor were they drunk...that is just popular myth.

Many terrorist activities are casually dismissed by many who use it as an excuse vilify Islam, especially Christian terrorism.

Can you give us a list of those 'many' activities?

If you consider the number of christian terrorist attacks as 'many' what word do you use to describe the number of radical islamic attacks the world over?
 
Seriously, making a comparison between two things doesn't mean claiming they are identical. No need to take offense.

But I also don't see why someone in the position to do so, wouldn't want to engage in asymmetrical warfare.
 
Some of that is true, but

Every single military attack is meant to not only achieve its objectives, but also to scare the other side.

No. Thats simply an incorrect assumption. In fact, the law of war precludes efforts that would do this, and makes it a war crime to use weapons or tactics that would 'scare' the other side. For example, it would be a warcrime to mangle dead enemy to make it appear their deaths were even more grusome.

War is terrible enough without someone trying to make it more terrible than it needs to be.

I mean, hey, that'd be bonus if they got scared, right? Even more bonus if they withdrew from the country as a result.

Right, but you cant just use any means to achieve that end. Many are illegal.

Seriously, making a comparison between two things doesn't mean claiming they are identical. No need to take offense.

But I also don't see why someone in the position to do so, wouldn't want to engage in asymmetrical warfare.

Because it can backfire if one unable to keep the level of 'terror' hgh enough to achieve the desired result.

Plus, lots of its applications can easily cross the line to be warcrimes.
 
Can you give us a list of those 'many' activities?
Can you click on the Wiki URL and read the article I already posted?

Threats of right-wing violence have doubled in the past year. What is behind the latest upsurge in the movement to create a Christian theocratic state?
 
Can you click on the Wiki URL and read the article I already posted?

I did. The only real example it gave in the USA was the tiller killer.

I am simply wondering why you choose to label a single act of violence as 'many instances'.

Threats of right-wing violence have doubled in the past year. What is behind the latest upsurge in the movement to create a Christian theocratic state?

I have highlighted the appropriate word here. You do understand the difference in a 'threat' and the occurance of an actual 'attack' right?

A threat of violence simply wouldnt be an 'instance' of Christian terrorism. Sorry.

So again, where are the 'many instances' your talking about?
 
I did. The only real example it gave in the USA was the tiller killer.
Sure. If you deliberately ignore all the rest...

Once again:

Threats of right-wing violence have doubled in the past year. What is behind the latest upsurge in the movement to create a Christian theocratic state?

Christian terrorism has returned to America with a vengeance. And it is not just Roeder. When members of the Hutaree militia in Michigan and Ohio recently were arrested with plans to kill a random policeman and then plant Improvised Explosive Devices in the area where the funeral would be held to kill hundreds more, this was a terrorist plot of the sort that would impress Shi’ite militia and al Qaeda activists in Iraq. The Southern Poverty Law Center, founded by Morris Dees, which has closely watched the rise of right-wing extremism in this country for many decades, declares that threats and incidents of right-wing violence have risen 200% in this past year—unfortunately coinciding with the tenure of the first African-American president in US history. When Chip Berlet, one of this country’s best monitors of right-wing extremism, warned in a perceptive essay last week on RD that the hostile right-wing political climate in this country has created the groundwork for a demonic new form of violence and terrorism, I fear that he is correct.

According to the most prolific Reconstruction writer, Gary North, it is “the moral obligation of Christians to recapture every institution for Jesus Christ." He feels this to be especially so in the United States, where secular law as construed by the Supreme Court and defended by liberal politicians is moving in what Rushdoony and others regard as a decidedly un-Christian direction; particularly in matters regarding abortion and homosexuality. What the Reconstructionists ultimately want, however, is more than the rejection of secularism. Like other theologians who utilize the biblical concept of “dominion,” they reason that Christians, as the new chosen people of God, are destined to dominate the world.

The only real difference are the religious texts the fanatics who engage in terrorism claim must be the gospel.

This isn't a sports event where only the terrorists with the most incidents count, as you seem to think. The both represent exactly the same threat for exactly the same reasons.

Any government that supports, protects or harbours terrorists is complicit in the murder of the innocent and equally guilty of terrorist crimes. George W. Bush

We are not at war with the Afghani people, and we are not at war with Islam, which most Americans respect as a religion of peace. George W. Bush

We will make no distinction between the terrorists who committed these acts and those who harbor them. George W. Bush
 
No. Thats simply an incorrect assumption. In fact, the law of war precludes efforts that would do this, and makes it a war crime to use weapons or tactics that would 'scare' the other side. For example, it would be a warcrime to mangle dead enemy to make it appear their deaths were even more grusome.

War is terrible enough without someone trying to make it more terrible than it needs to be.

I know, it's scary. People get scared as a result. That's what I was saying.
 
Back
Top Bottom