[Xtended] Things, Typos, & Bugs...

[Alexej]

My lag was only caused by those ogres, didn`t noticed there was 1000 of them, I am playing civ 4,5,6 on high end pc with 32gb ddr4 ram so no lags from spells here so far

Scions of Patria honored Band can not sometimes get Elite Formation misc gear. I have some promoted to Gladiators and they can, though Lord Protectors can not. Also some of my units have Implacable promo some not

EDIT : Can someone check this save? Got infinite loop at end of turn War started between 2 allied enemies vs me and my defensive pact partner khazad but dont see what should I delete to save this campaign

 

[Calavente]

Hi, Happy new year !!

I finished my Elohim game.
and 4 things bothered me, even if not too damaging.

- Faith... half your faith is taxed out to pay for your faith-research. no problem there. However, when you reach the end of the faith-tree...; you still miss out of your half of faith... but your taxed-out faith isn't going into anything... and is not given back to you. that's a bit sad.
- Faith 2.0: faithful trait : when you have "faithful trait", you get 1 prophet per religion : this should happen 2 times. However, when you buy it with culture... if it comes after "discovering religions" : you get only the +50% faith and lose out on the free great prophets... snif.
- Galean is arcance but doesn't get any xp on using spells. His only xp is by combat.
- Hospitalier (Elohim UU) : it's a mounted unit.. with only 1mvt... is there a specific logic for that ? it seems slow for a mounted unit. (even if ultimatly, you can get fast horses, mobility 1 (at level 8 minimum), mobility 2 (later) and +1mvt when using the lance's "charge" ability.

Notes: Elohim a real good on all that faith generation, especially using the buildings specifics to Unique Features. That was nice.
however, those buildings needs heavily some stone, and I had to mana-search nature to commute mana into stones... a lot.
Monks were streamlined by the monk-promo tree... and then were quite good. I'm not completly sure that their str and promotions compensate for not being able to get gear...
I suppose that with the monk-oriented leader they become even better.
The Shrine maidens are kinda good. However, I didn't really knew how to profit from their spells... so even with 5 life mana, they were weaker than Paladins. (it's hard to say which can grow faster : Shrine maiden with +2/life mana, or paladins with +2 from techs??)

I don't remember how "bane divine" works ... but I expect that Elohim become crippled in that case.

 

[Alexej]

Probably oversight, yes Hospitaler should have 2mvt imo. What leader you played? I have Ethne the White and all disciple units including monks are great but maybe they should be allowed to wear staffs from Rangers guild and Protector too.
Bug : Dimensional Portal after sealing becomes Red Blob, save provided

 

[Bolaji]

*Calabim: maybe move Pure blood (gear) and Blood Witch (unit) from Priest guild to Slavery? Vampires "living" for own pleasure, not for gods or demons and don't need religions.
*Kuriotates: give "big cities" two or more districts instead of one? This "Metropolises" really have no advantages compared to "normal cities" of most civs, and have big problem - "settelments" make research and guilds more expensive (number of cities), but give no money or culture or research points. Kurio have almost nothing to compensate it.
*Adventurer (orc) can morf only in Brute and Longboworc. Let he can be Ogre Warchief (orcish race too).

 

[Alexej]

Maybe Kuriotates should get unique stronger districts, I agree city limit seems to be too harsh on small and standart maps. They have nice buildings to help with happiness but nothing super powerfull to compensate for that limit. Also I remember Kuriotates AI was causing crashes in past. Maybe its time to rework them somehow. Is their city limit so much tangled to the lore? What about making settlements into normal cities with limit on 5-6 population and debuff called settlement crippling culture, research, money and faith income by lets say 50-80% (but mainetance too) and block building of wonders, national wonders and districts there?

 

[Bolaji]

What about making settlements into normal cities with debuff called settlement crippling culture, research, money and faith income by lets say 50-80% and block building of wonders, national wonders and districts there?

So Kurio lost their unique feature... They have all life/industry/science/ets focused on few cities. It's not solution.
Maybe settlements can be created like colonies - no buildings, no units, just clean profit: money, commerce, culture... settlements must generate it for metropolises. Amount can grove in time (with culture level, maybe). So Kurio will have reason to expand, especially on a large maps (now Kurio hopeless losing to try conclusions with "normal" civs).

 

[Alexej]

Those 3 metropolises on small and standart maps with 3rd ring of reach can have really lot of yields though and people like to play kuriotates so maybe we are only ones seeing this limit as too harsh

 

[esvath]

Happy new year!

Will check on the Hospitallers (should be 2-move) and red blob on Portal (should has a dimension gate graphic).

RE: Faith
Yeah, that's too bad that even after acquiring the last Sacred Knowledge, the faith income is still halved. It's in the dll though, so regular disclaimer (that I can't mod it out) applies.

RE: Faithful trait
Faithful not getting Great Prophet bonus when bought late is not ideal but that's how current code works; on acquiring a tech, the code check on the leader's trait. I haven't found a better code for this.

RE: Elohim

• IIRC, all Elohim leaders have traits which support Disciple units/faith income in one way or the other. One whose trait is rather different is Meelais, leaning on the scientific side? With these traits, Elohim should be able to thrive. They are one of the best civs in my play tests.
• Glories and Shrine Maidens benefit from the Altar and lots of mana (converted to Life node). They are better than the human soldiers at early to mid game but mid to late game, it depends on how mana rich your territory is. In my last game, AI Elohim managed to hoard mana and buff their Glories to 19 str in Turn 250-ish. For comparison, my Phantom Warriors with Phantasmagoria and lots of Mind Mana has 23 str, and I am the strongest civ. But if there is little mana nodes inside your territory, it's better to invest on researching military branches.

RE: Kuriotates

• I'd suggest not to spam settlements. If you really need settlements, cast lost of enchantment so they can generate culture/faith/mana/etc to help your empire.
• Stronger districts for Kuriotates is possible but play tests show that AI Kuriotates is consistently on top three, regardless of civs combinations. Stronger districts will make them even stronger. I am hesitant to do that.

RE: Calabim

• Pure Blood to Slavery is possible, have to check on overall Calabim design on that.
• Blood Witch at Slavery is possible and fine for human players but will cripple AI Calabim because they would hesitate to adopt higher Slavery techs due to penalty to happiness. This is bad because Calabim needs Blood Witches to support their pre-Vampire military force.

RE: Orc Adventurers
Ogres are Orc racially? I forgot about that, lol. I'll check and see whether it is feasible for Orc Adventurer to transform into Ogres.

 

[Calavente]

re shrine maidens... there was no critic there. only that I didn't really knew how to take advantage of their spells, so I suppose I missed a bit on their strength.

I have a question regarding Jotnar: May someone give me some strategic tips ?
- Jotnar need lot of Money (to upgrade their units, which is a costly business), and science to get all those funky units ... however:
* their cities are small and will stay small... so you don't profite from most gold-generating / science generating district-related buildings: what would be the "trick" ?
* their cities are small and they don't produce units... Nobles districts, with Happies, and with military and xp buildings have no real use, Temple district neither (unless I missed a use for faith)... however, the capital is limited to being a Noble district...
* their cities are small, so you might which to spend your citizens on food heavy tiles, to get more citizens... however you need commerce/gold, and a LOT of stone, for all the UB.... what to priorize ?
- what does the speaker do ? it has channeling II and Divine... but is there a spell linked to it ? (do Jotnar have a use for faith?)
- Titan and Berserker seems to be almost the same with sole identifiable differnence being Titan having immortal and chan III.. do they have a difference ? do they have access to some specific and different spells ? or are they "limited" to the mundane spells ... ?
- cities are 3rings, but UB push for many small cities (reduction of maintenance, increase of gpp generation by number of cities...etc)
- trolls (first level) are weaker than Jotnar citizens (7 instead of 10) and only boost "vs animal" which doesn't compensate for -3str, and "better chances in villages" : when is it interesting to get those smallish trolls ?
- Why use elder trolls ? they have 22str, like Cyclops, but need much more tech (need grove, which are paladin-level tech in the priest chapter) while Cyclops "only" need the second (third?) recon line tech
- Guilds: which guilds would they need ? :
* artisan to get all the bonus to production and gold/science from metals and gems, + get many metal to equip their "almost only melee civ"
* hunter: no?
* magic guild : why not... they have many units with channeling... maybe they can do something with having more mana to spend + small cities can use "mana-to-hammers" conversion
* commerce: yes ? or not ? need to get gold... but you won't get really big cities...
* slavery : no/yes: no need to get more non-buildable units : not bothered by the lack of happies !!
* esus : why not ?
* priest chapter : thematically NO, practically Yes: agnaostic civ, no use for any faith generation building (from what I gathered), but 3 UU are on the path line : Mouth and Elder Troll + a magical pseudo-druid. (maybe Elder trolls would not need groves ?)
any tips for guilds ?

I'm pretty sure I'll have later questions or may think of things as under powered

thanks in advance for the tips.

 

[Calavente]

Maybe it was not clear in my previous post (because I don't express well my thoughts while writing, especially in english)... but the issue is that I'm confused on the strategic paths that would play to the strengths of the Jotnar.

(for the Titan / Berserk point, it's in fact 2 points : I was wondering what do the channeling I-II-III do /allow to do, AND I was wondering what was the differences between the Berserk and the Titan : the Titan seems like an improved Berserk : in the 'Pedia, the Titan has all the features of the Berserk and on top of that has further : "Loyalty, Immortality and Channeling III"...
I would have expected that Berserker would have a few, different, features : more attack than defense ? colalteral damage ? more movement ? something.... (free "Berserker" class ? so that it can be the only unit with either : 3classes, or 2 classes before level 15, or even 2 classes from 2 different disciplines ).

 

[esvath]

Yeah, Jotnar still requires some improvements. I'll look closer on your suggestion this week end.

 

[Ombatur]

On Kuriotates:

Maybe Kuriotates should get unique stronger districts, I agree city limit seems to be too harsh on small and standart maps. They have nice buildings to help with happiness but nothing super powerfull to compensate for that limit.

I have to disagree here. Whenever the AI plays as them, they are always the best performing AI civ. In my recent games with Kuriotates they attacked me on turn 100 or so (I was evil and they were good) and gave me a rough time. I play on standard or small mapsize and monarch difficulty, so no crazy difficulty.
In my opinion, instead of being buffed, they should actually be nerfed.

Also I remember Kuriotates AI was causing crashes in past.

This doesn't happen anymore, luckily. It was somewhere fixed with the 4.x or 5.x versions.

 

[Calavente]

Yeah, Jotnar still requires some improvements. I'll look closer on your suggestion this week end.

thanks Esvath.
however, for the moment I don't really have any suggestions... mainly observations on what I found "strange" or "diverging".
one of the main points that is not assessed IMO is the effect of small pop cities...
as I stated for Austrin, MoM revolves around at least a few big pop cities... (districts and all). and Jotnar are one civ with low pop.
I expect that a good brain-storming would be useful for adressing the following possible issues:
- Hero of Legend is a Jotnar citizen, like the 2 units that come with the tech (instead of being a unit of a upper tier as for other civs)
- very small cities (esp when starting in plains) : so that means : small income for everything
- expensive upgrades from jotnar citizen to any unit. (ergo Jotnar will need a LOT of gold, and might need to become either raiders, or merchants
- troll line is strange (only "troll hunter" is well designed)
- differentiate Titan vs Berserker (NB: Jotnar have 4 "tier V units" with 30str: "forgotten name" comes earlier but has no channeling promotions ; Titan and Berserker are end-of-game and have a further "channeling promotions + courage", and the priest line (middle tech) allows a 30str +1nature affinity). there is only titan and berserker that are too close to each other.
- effect of the disciple UU "Mouth .." and use of faith.

 

[Calavente]

so, I've had time to play a bit more yesterday.

Playing Jotnar
stone is hard, but I managed. (I mis-read the civilopedia, and in fact you have "only" 1 UB (200stones) + 1 U-wonder (500stones).
what is more critical atm are the following:
- upgrading
- City output. (not pop per-se, but the city global output). (this can be linked to gold)

1. upgrading
   1. Upgrading is expensive
      1. getting a 7str troll that can become a barb costs..., or a worker (that cannot do anything more or better than your basic Jotnar citizen) 256gold ;
      2. getting a 10str into a 15str is 465 gold (troll hunter / Hill Giant);
      3. for comparison, upgrading an adventurer into a tier 3 unit (about 12str) costs about 700 gold... but that unit get +2 per combat tech... so, mid game can be 22str instead of 12, and mid-late game can even have gained +18 str (9 +2techs is not too hard : 2 on the strategic line, 3 for mounted tier 3-4 and stirrups, 2 for tier 4 recon, 1 for tier 4 melee). so, that 700gold unit, mid game is about as strong as equivalent jotnar units ( , and end-mid game, without any tier V tech, is already at 31str, greater than the tier IV units of Jotnar, and is spammable
   2. This cost has 2 main reasons :
      1. Jotnar citizen is initiated with a low "hammers" cost, thus the difference in hammers induces a high cost (This is very very different from other "upgrades" : upgrading an adept to mage, is low cost, mage to archmage is also low cost. Upgrading elephant to war elephant is... 5gold
      2. Jotnar units are priced very expensivly in hammers (even for their level) : a titan costs.. 600 ! I won't even imagine the gold cost to upgrade to Titan... I don't remember other units of the same range having such hammers costs.
   3. High upgrading costs is a double-bind IMO
      1. Jotnar already have unit limiting points
      2. Jotnar units cannot be built, so each loss is very expensive: one cannot spam Jotnar units, even without the gold cost.
      3. Jotnar units can only be built using Gold... one cannot split the cost with lumber/leather/metal, and gold is not easy to get in early-game / mid game
   4. Upgrading is an issue
      1. Triton (tier 3.5) and Cyclop (tier 3) can only be upgraded from Jotnar citizen... meaning the cost will be humongenous AND you have to keep one of those in stock.
      2. Titan (tier IV), and the armored jotnar (tier 3.5 unit) upgrade only from war flail (tier II.5 (needs also code of law)) which upgrade only from hill giant (tier II, need also cartography)... so to get war flail you need not only melee tier 3 tech, and code of law... but ALSO cartography. ANd for that other armored jotnar, you don't only need tier 4 melee tech, but also code of law and cartography.
      3. Troll Elder is 22str, but need same tech as woodfather (druid-like unit, 30str +1nature affinity + spells) AND need recon-tier 4 tech
2. City output
   1. Jotnar cities have low pop
   2. Pop induces 3 income :
      1. working a tile / or a specialist
      2. District related output (1/ pop or more)
      3. trade routes (minimal)
   3. A jotnar citizen costs 5 F... thus, a Jotnar citizen costs as much as 2.5 normal citizen, but outputs as much as a normal citizen
      
   4. however, Jotnar do not have means to get advantage while being thus handicapped

 

[Calavente]

ideas for "upgrading".
- reduce value of all jotnar units
- increase Elder Troll performance OR, make Elder Troll depend ONLY on recon 4 tech and have it upgradable to Woodfather, with the caveat of having the troll-regeneration ability.
I'd rather have Elder Troll be increased in perf as currently Elder Troll is about the same performances as Cyclop, while having much higher tech prerequists (1 more science Tech and at least 6-7 guild techs.
for example Elder Troll at 28str + hides in forest/jungle/marshes water, moves through mountains and coastal water.

multiples cumulative or non-cumulatives ideas to balance City Output:
1) have Jotnar citizen produce 1.5 / 2 times more than normal citizens: (all of the followings)
- "tradition" increases production of all improvements by a +50% / + 100 (maybe not for food)
- "tradition" increases specialist output
- Jotnar Districts buildings have a doubled output when that output is based on population
2) alternatives:
- Jotnar UB (the free building) grants 1science, 1gold, 1production, 1 culture per population (what about yields, spell research, faith generation?)
- Jotnar Giant units can "work" as a specialist in the city if present in city (??)
- Jotnar Giant units can "work" improvement tiles to produce gold/science/lumber/stone...Etc
...Etc

 

[Alexej]

Khazad Boar Rider can load any unit like ship its funny save provided

Child of Condatis fires red blob in combat

 

[esvath]

Alexej, could you check in the civpedia and see what units show as red blob there? I have checked mine and no red blob there, so I think there is something wrong with the installation. If you have many red blobs in the pedia, can you check on Assets folder, how many .fpk files do you have and what are they?

 

[Alexej]

No no no unit is fine only her shoot attack... you can try from my save. I doubt its intended that she fires red orbs.

My fpk files : XtendedFinal, Xtended41, MoM, EventArt, flavor

 

[Guru-Meditation]

I am playing 5.3 and in the last games i noticed the barbarians being unusually passive, not wanting to cause trouble. Just hanging out at their forts, no incursions, no pillaging, no trying to take cities.

For example Orthus spawned right next to my southern border once, but instead of wrecking my poorly defended city, he just hung out in a goblin fort for the rest of the game. Left him there as i didnt even want his Axe because of the XP malus.

Or the regular fort inhabitants, they were not respawning when i killed one. Before when there were three units in a fort and i killed one they would respawn at a rate of one per turn. But nowadays they dont.

What is up with them?

 

[Alexej]

Strange, they do for me. I finished 2 games with 5.3 and they respawn. Usually they send only 2 units at time to take my cities though so they are more free xp than threat. Only skeletons are comming with necromancer. Gobbos and orcs and reptiles allways 2 pieces