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YnAMP sub-project: True location corresponding city names

Discussion in 'Yet (not) Another Maps Pack' started by rock_and_ride, Nov 23, 2016.

  1. tomaltachpaulson

    tomaltachpaulson Chieftain

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    Just a heads up that I've added TSL for Macedon and Persia on the four main maps. Pull request on GitHub pending.
     
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  2. Gedemon

    Gedemon Modder Moderator

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    Click on my user name then "start a conversation" to send a PM

    Thank you, merged, and added to the beta .3 update :)
     
  3. Xefjord

    Xefjord Chieftain

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    So yesterday I tried my shot at playing Persia on the Giant Earth map and it put me in the position of what I assume is Tehran. (That is what my capitol city named itself, I don't know if that place has been covered with names yet). I just settled my city with where it immediately put me thinking that TSL knew what was best for me, and it turned out the tile had practically no housing which put me at a huge disadvantage in the early game. I could have moved my capitol a bit towards the nearest lake but didn't really realize I needed to until it was too late. And an AI will not know any better to move their capitol. So I would suggest moving Persia's capitol on the TSL so it can actually get some housing. Otherwise Persia will always be stunted at the beginning of the game (If played by AI) and being a little unnecessary trouble for a human player at the beginning of the game.
     
  4. Gedemon

    Gedemon Modder Moderator

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    IMO the map should be changed to fit the TSL(s), not the other way.

    But I'd prefer to gather more feedback on the position relatively to historicity, gameplay and the other Civilizations in the area.
     
  5. Xefjord

    Xefjord Chieftain

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    @Gedemon on page 11 there was talks about where to put Persia. Here is the picture again.
    I think Ecbatana is probably the best place to put Persia. It was a historical capitol and is far closer to a river/water source. I don't know how other people feel about it though. It seems more fitting to use an older capitol than a modern one to me anyway.
     
  6. Giffica

    Giffica Chieftain

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    I don't think the map needs to change, though? Why this insistence that every vanilla civ has to be playable at once? I mean, we're gonna have TONS of civs, some are going to overlap to the point where they have the same capitals, and even alt capitals are impossible. If they add the Ottomans and Byzantium, which are eventually likely and going to be used in a large percentage of games when modded, then already it's IMPOSSIBLE to have Alex, Gorgo, Pericles, Byz, and Turks all on the same map for the giant earth. That map is too small.

    Ultimately, I say change the maps. The Ludicrous size is even kind of not large enough to satisfy civ placement needs around the mid east area. But different maps allow for different games, so why force TSL changes for completely a-historical starts?

    Even then, i don't see the issue with having Sumer and Persia virtually side by side? Why no? persia will grow it's border right, into Persia, and Sumer will grow up Mesopotamia. Isn't that historically more accurate? Why are we so opposed to that?

    In response to the post above. Put it in Pasargadae, where it should be. That's 2 tile seperate, and gives each their full starting tiles. Persepolis will want to grow south fast, but that works totally.
     
  7. Gedemon

    Gedemon Modder Moderator

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    My point about the change to the map is that whatever TSL we chose, we'll need to edit it: none are close enough to water so we need to bring the water to them, so moving the TSL because of it's lack of water/food/production is not an argument, I'll adapt the map once the TSL is chosen.

    Remember that if two TSL are too close, one may not spawn at all and people won't understand why the Civs they have selected are not on the map.

    That's why I took a few days to code the alternate TSL features, I know people will never be happy whatever choice we made, people want 62 civs on a map with historical TSL and enough space to build 4 cities in Europe before meeting another civs. And no more than 5 seconds between turn please.

    But now we can set an ideal TSL and alternate on conditions when civA, civB or LeaderC are in the game, we just need to set those.

    I don't understand the part about insistence, the code was released 2 days ago, the TSL updated a few hours later thanks to tomaltachpaulson so that people can start playing, and since then I'm debugging game breaking issues, and I didn't even mentioned any name, because I'm not going to make the choice here, I'm just explaining how it should be made.

    And that simple: forget water/food/production/resource on the plots, balance historicity/leaders/civilizations/space.
     
  8. Xefjord

    Xefjord Chieftain

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    I didn't realize you had intentions of changing the map for balance purposes. I will admit when I first heard "IMO the map should be changed to fit the TSL(s), not the other way." I had a slight knee-jerk reaction thinking you meant some kind of drastic change to the map. But I realize it probably isn't as bad as it sounds. I think you are doing a great job at getting stuff done in a timely manner with a level of quality that few others can provide. I just wanted to start a discussion about the placement of Persia's capitol as I don't feel like Tehran is the best choice. Regardless of which capitol you choose. I think I will be satisfied with any capitol you choose so long as it is a bit more historical. (It just feels a little jarring to as ancient Persia be in Tehran)

    Thank you for your hard work Gedemon and everyone else who is helping develop and support this mod!
     
  9. Gedemon

    Gedemon Modder Moderator

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    I'll quote tomaltachpaulson post from the main thread here to follow the discussion:
    About the nature of the changes to the map, with the importance of housing, it can simply be to add a tributaries of an existing river or an oasis.

    There is also the option to add resources around a TSL when the corresponding Civ is in game, but the related XML file need a big update.
     
  10. ITcore

    ITcore Chieftain

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    Does "Force TSL" auto-settle the initial settlers at the start? I'd like for Gorgo, Pericles and Alexander to all be in their original starting positions. I know it'd be cramped, but it makes it more life-like with the constant warring Greek domains.
     
  11. Gedemon

    Gedemon Modder Moderator

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    Yes, it replace the settler by a city.

    When using it, if the city can't be placed because there is another close TSL, the civilization is removed from the game.

    You can use the closer cities mod will to allow closer civs in that case.

    Edit: searching for an alternate tsl is also based on minimal city distance.
     
  12. Gedemon

    Gedemon Modder Moderator

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    A small reminder, as this was causing some confusion and bug reports on the other thread:

    Please do not replace a base LOC_CITY_NAME_ tag from the normal game by another one with a different translation, else it will appears in game even if the Auto city naming option is disabled, or when using a map which doesn't allow it.

    We had the problem with Athens which was showing the (ancient) Greek name in normal game, and this time I've replaced all entries starting with "LOC_CITY_NAME_TENOCHTITLAN" by "LOC_CITY_NAME_MEXICO_CITY" to prevent the Aztec capital to be named "Mexico City" on any map.

    I'd suggest to always have the default LOC_NAME matching the default English city name.

    There is no problem in reusing the same tag (to prevent to have to check if it already exist, which would be inconvenient), but don't use a tag that wont fit the default name, for example this cause problem:
    Code:
    <Replace Tag="LOC_CITY_NAME_TENOCHTITLAN" Text="Mexico City" Language="en_US" />
    <Replace Tag="LOC_CITY_NAME_TENOCHTITLAN_AZTEC" Text="Tenochtitlan" Language="en_US" />
    this work:
    Code:
    <Replace Tag="LOC_CITY_NAME_MEXICO_CITY" Text="Mexico City" Language="en_US" />
    <Replace Tag="LOC_CITY_NAME_MEXICO_CITY_AZTEC" Text="Tenochtitlan" Language="en_US" />
    And as LOC_CITY_NAME_TEXCOCO is another base game tag, setting the translation to "Mexico City" was allowing the placement of 2 cities with this name for the Aztec, in any game (except on the Giant Earth, it's the unique case where it works)

    To handle it while allowing that name for the Aztec at the true location, this work:

    Code:
    <Replace Tag="LOC_CITY_NAME_TEXCOCO" Text="Texcoco" Language="en_US" />
    <Replace Tag="LOC_CITY_NAME_TEXCOCO_AMERICA" Text="Mexico City" Language="en_US" />
    <Replace Tag="LOC_CITY_NAME_TEXCOCO_ENGLAND" Text="Mexico City" Language="en_US" />
    To be safe, I've also replaced :

    LOC_CITY_NAME_METZTITLAN -> LOC_CITY_NAME_SAN_LUIS_POTOSI
    LOC_CITY_NAME_CHICHEN_ITZA -> LOC_CITY_NAME_CANCUN
    LOC_CITY_NAME_XILOTEPEC -> LOC_CITY_NAME_MEX_LEON

    Thanks.
     
  13. guidemwit

    guidemwit Chieftain

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    I'll start working on the rest of South Asia from X= 47 to X=53 all the way up to Central Asia and Kazakhstan.

    @brick623 @Gedemon Could you share end of Y-coordinate of your Iran/Persia city name so that I can continue the job around east of Caspian sea? Also Y-coordinate around Western Russia which I thought already completed to X=51, right?
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2017
  14. Moda

    Moda Chieftain

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    I've edited some North American city names and locations for the Giant Earth map, and added in some North American city names for Macedon while I was at it. I'm going to make a pull request soon after I've done a play test.
    Spoiler City changes: :
    NA City Changes 05-02-17.jpg

    Changes:
    - Some of Northwestern Ontario's cities were named after villages and parks. Now they are named after larger nearby towns and cities.
    - Detroit now borders Windsor, and Grand Rapids (Michigan) is added in to fill space.
    - Grand Rapids (Manitoba) renamed Moose Lake.
    -Panama City moved farther west. Now all three "canal city" tiles in Central America will be Panamanian.
    - Not Pictured are the NA city names for Macedon. Now Macedon has a bit more flavor when colonizing or conquering the continent, like many other old world civs.
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2017
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  15. Sauron The Great

    Sauron The Great Chieftain

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    Just to mention something, I was watching the AI's goof off on Deity (using the autoplay mod) and I noticed two weird city placements. I noticed that Las Vegas had been founded ... on the south shore of the Colorado river, in the Arizona area. In my head I was like 'uh, no... that should be Flagstaff or something...' and then I see that San Diego has been founded ... a bit inland. With the latter, it isn't too weird, only a bit odd that a distinctly coastal city was 1 tile inland. But the former is not very accurate. Las Vegas isn't on a river IRL (most of the water comes from lake mead, as it is 15ish miles to the west of Las Vegas.) Now, 15 miles isn't much on the map, and would justify its location being on the bend of the Colorado on the west side, but...not on the south shore. Anyway, if you guys have an answer to my comment, please write it. Thanks.
     
  16. Moda

    Moda Chieftain

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    Yes. The city placements for the Great Basin area (Colorado, Nevada, Utah, and southern Oregon and Idaho) are a bit off. It's mostly because of the general geography of the area being somewhat distorted due to the large size of natural wonders and landmarks. For example, I've placed Bend a bit further east than it should be, but that's because Crater Lake (a natural wonder that Bend is near IRL) extends a tad farther east due to its in-game size. I've been meaning to get around to tweaking those cities and I think I will use this as an excuse to fix them alongside the other tweaks I'm making.

    As for the coastal cities being able to be founded a bit in-land, that's simply because in-land cities can build harbor districts making them semi-coastal. So, in my opinion at least, two tiles away from a coast can be considered "close enough" if there are few other well-known cities in the approximate area. But, I must admit, some of these decisions are due to my better familiarity with east-coast geography rather than west-coast. So while I'm making these tweaks, I will probably edit in a Riverside here and extend Flagstaff there to satisfy the geography buffs in all of us. I'll post more images of these changes when I make them.
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2017
  17. Moda

    Moda Chieftain

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    Finished editing city placement in the American West. Indeed, it was in need of a major overhaul.
    Spoiler American West Changes: :
    NA City Changes2 05-03-17.png

    Some cities are still slightly off, especially around the Cascades, but I tied the city locations as best I could to local landmarks. For example, it appears that Crater Lake is much further south than the Great Salt Lake, which made things a tad difficult when placing cities.
     
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  18. Gedemon

    Gedemon Modder Moderator

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    I can move it back a bit north if needed, it was a request for an achievement...

    I still have some changes to the maps planned on the to do, it's not quick work, but I'll be happy to tweak more areas to better fit the real map, what I need is suggestion and illustration for what to change and how.
     
  19. Moda

    Moda Chieftain

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    Hi Gedemon.

    These are some suggested changes for the physical geography of the American West:
    Spoiler American West Physical Geography Change Suggestions: :
    West Physical New.png

    I hope that is easy to read without a legend. Red and Yellow arrows indicate a moved landmark. All others are new data. As for the coast tile representing San Francisco Bay, that can instead be a grass or plains tile to make the area more navigable depending on your preference.

    If these changes are made, I would change the city map in the area accordingly:
    Spoiler American West City Changes if above :
    West City New.png

    Just ignore the numbers and colour-coding.
     
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  20. Xefjord

    Xefjord Chieftain

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    I haven't followed this for a while now but just checked up on it. Is there any areas of the world that are still unfinished? Or are we just tweaking areas and adding civ specific names at this point?
     

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