Perfection
The Great Head.
This is nowhere near what happened to the Japenese-Americans. (still isn't right, of course)A'AbarachAmadan said:
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Ethics
Yeehaw!
Damnyankee said:
Quite simply, and for reasons alluded to in the article, we would have to compromise classified sources in federal court.
To give an example, it was believed that the Rosenburgs were possibly innocent before and after they were executed. It didn't come out until 1995 (during declassification), that we infact knew they were guilty as we had secretly broken the codes of the KGB, but at the time we could not allow that information to come out.
I tend to believe that in 50 years it will come out that the vast majority of those detained are infact guilty as sin.
BasketCase
Username sez it all
Demanding access to classified material is a favorite tactic in criminal court. It's commonly referred to as "graymailing".
Verbose
Deity
Oth, classifying material that shouldn't be in order to save face is also a favourite tactic of many governments.BasketCase said:
Verbose
Deity
Why not provide the proof of it now then, when it's relevant and Gitmo an eyesore?Ethics said:
In 50 years time no one will care anyway.
If the US is getting it right anyway, why not mollify suspicious bastards like myself and shut our gobs? I think they would if they could.
Gelion
Retired Captain
is that all you can post?rmsharpe said:
I'd understand you more if you tried to think of an explanation for what was said here or try to defend it. But now come up with one line comment
h4ppy
You sir, pineapple?
Well in the government's defense, international law doesn't exist.
BasketCase
Username sez it all
Uhhhh.....if it's classified, then you can't SEE it, which means you don't know that it should be declassified.....Verbose said:Oth, classifying material that shouldn't be in order to save face is also a favourite tactic of many governments.
(Curious how so many people think they know "the truth" and think they know what's actually in whatever classified files they want declassified....)
Verbose
Deity
What I'm suggesting is the US govt declassifying at least something to back up their claims for the necessity of Gitmo. They can make the selection, I don't mind...BasketCase said:Uhhhh.....if it's classified, then you can't SEE it, which means you don't know that it should be declassified.....
(Curious how so many people think they know "the truth" and think they know what's actually in whatever classified files they want declassified....)
nonconformist
Miserable
h4ppy said:
In that case, I assume the Geneva convention etc. wouldn't exist (a common excuse by Americans).
So tell me; does that make warcerimes by the resistance right? DOes that make the beheading rights? Executions? Torture?
I assume so, since it's a two way street.
Dr Alimentado
Prince
Ethics said:
Typical BS spin... you are also factually incorrect.
The FBI/CIA did not have 'secret codes' that were later declassified - you are referring to sources such as the Mitrokhin archive and various other KGB files that have been recieved long after their execution. This information confirmed that Julius Rosenburg was involved in some low level spying, and failed to mention Ethel Rosenburg at all - so it is more than likely that she had only a passive role. What we do now know is that the information Julius Rosenburg passed was insignificant compared to the real meat and bones intelligence the KGB got on the atom bomb from their british sources.
The reality is that the trial of the Rosenburgs was a politically motivated show trial, he was an ideolgically motivated jewish communist - insignificant in terms of intelligence passed - but symbolic for the anti-red paranoia of the time.
The FBI knew they had little case against Ethel Rosenburg but were determined to prosecute and get the death penalty for her in order to get leverage on Julius to co-operate. They were convinced they could 'break' the couple and get useful information from them.
The main witness against them had a personal grudge and was part of the spy-ring, the FBI coached every witness to perfection.
They were both offered clemency, if they would confess all and implicate others. They didnt, so were executed. The public were shocked by the severity of the sentances, its extremely unusual for espionage cases to result in a death sentance. The FBI were shocked that they never broke them.
Of course, don't let any of the grey blurriness of real life interfere with your revisionist black and white view of history. I mean, that might mean that the real present world isn't black and white either !
Ethics
Yeehaw!
Dr Alimentado said:Typical BS spin... you are also factually incorrect.
The FBI/CIA did not have 'secret codes' that were later declassified - you are referring to sources such as the Mitrokhin archive and various other KGB files that have been recieved long after their execution. This information confirmed that Julius Rosenburg was involved in some low level spying, and failed to mention Ethel Rosenburg at all - so it is more than likely that she had only a passive role. What we do now know is that the information Julius Rosenburg passed was insignificant compared to the real meat and bones intelligence the KGB got on the atom bomb from their british sources.
The reality is that the trial of the Rosenburgs was a politically motivated show trial, he was an ideolgically motivated jewish communist - insignificant in terms of intelligence passed - but symbolic for the anti-red paranoia of the time.
The FBI knew they had little case against Ethel Rosenburg but were determined to prosecute and get the death penalty for her in order to get leverage on Julius to co-operate. They were convinced they could 'break' the couple and get useful information from them.
The main witness against them had a personal grudge and was part of the spy-ring, the FBI coached every witness to perfection.
They were both offered clemency, if they would confess all and implicate others. They didnt, so were executed. The public were shocked by the severity of the sentances, its extremely unusual for espionage cases to result in a death sentance. The FBI were shocked that they never broke them.
Of course, don't let any of the grey blurriness of real life interfere with your revisionist black and white view of history. I mean, that might mean that the real present world isn't black and white either !
You're wrong... although, I thought I might painstakingly share one of the sources I've used and come across in research and classes in this subject.
"In his confession Fechs described an American contact that the FBI soon identified as Harry Gold. Gold had been named in 1947 as a Soviet agent by Elizabeth Bentley, herself a former Soviet spy. But Gold had not been indicted because of the lack of collaborative evidence to support Bentley's story. In 1947, Gold had withstood FBI questioning, confident that it had little to back up Bentley's accusations. This time, however, Fuch's information implicated Gold in atomic espionage, a far more serious matter than Bentley's information of his involvement in low level industrial spying.
Hoping that his cooperation would allow him to avoid the maximum penalty (execution) under American law, Gold confessed. He not only confirmed he had been a courier between Fuchs in Los Alamos and a Soviet intelligent officer, he also provided a description of a seccond Los Alamos source, a soldier from whom he had couriered information. Using Gold's confession, the FBI shortly thereafter confronted David Greenglass, who had been working at the Los Alamos atomic facility. Greenglass also confessed. His confession also implicated his brother-in-law, Julius Rosenberg, in Soviet atomic espionage.
Greenglass's sister, Ethel, had met Julius Rosenberg, while he was studying electrical engineering at the City College of New York in the mid 1930s. Both became activists in the Young Communist League, and later adult members of the communist party (Julius recruited the younger David Greenglass into the Young Communist League. In 1943 the Rosenbergs dropped out of open communist activity and into Soviet espionage. Julius coordinated an espionage ring that consisted largely of engineers with Communist backgrounds like himself who worked on military technology projects. When he learned in 1944 that his brother-in-law had been assigned to Los Alamos, he asked Greenglass to provide information on his work to the Soviet Union. Greenglass agreed, and later provided information about the bomb mechanisms he worked on as a soldier/machinist, particularly the high-explosive lens that initiated the atomic chain reaction.
When Greenglass's arrest was announced in the press, Morton Sobell, a Rosenberg engineering friend who had worked on military radar, fled to Mexico but was seized by Mexican authorities and returned to the United States. Also dissapearing from the United States were two other of Rosenberg's engineering friends, Joel Barr and Alfred Sarant. Both reappeared many decades later working on military electronics in the Soviet Union. They told Western reporters they had left home to avoid anti-communist hysteria and had never been involved in espionage.
Convicting the Rosenberg's was not a very difficult task for the prosecution. The testimony of Harry Gold and David Greenglass was a supported by a mass of colloborative evidence. Nor was the Rosenberg's defense able to discredit the prosecution's case. Both Rosenbergs were convicted and in 1953 were executed. Morton Sobell, tried with the Rosenbergs, was also convicted and received a thirty year sentence. Gold and Greenglass were imprisoned but given lighter sentences because of their cooperation with the prosecution.
The evidence that the Rosenbergs were involved in Soviet espionage was overwelming and has only grown over time. In 1995 the release of the Venona intercepts further confirmed the accuracy of the government's case. Among those definitively named as spies by these decoded Soviet messages were the Rosenbergs, Klaus Fuches, David Greenglass, Morton Sobell, Joel Barr, and Alfred Sarant.
The most debatable aspect of the Rosenberg case was the decision to execute Ethel Rosenberg. Each of the major advances in the case had been made possible by participants talking. First Gouzenko defected and talked, which led to Fuchs. His confession led to Harry Gold. Gold confessed, and this led to David Greenglass. Greenglass's confession led to the Rosenbergs and Sobell. Here, however, the chain stopped. Neither Julius or Rosenberg would cooperate with authorities. Joel Barr and Alfred Sarant, of course, avoided involvement in the case by secretly fleeing to the USSR. The FBI had information implicating others in the Soviet spy ring of which Julius Rosenberg was a key figure, and intensely questioned several. None, however, confessed or was tried for espionage because of insufficient evidence. One of them, William Perl, an aeronautical engineer, was convicted of perjury for lying to a grand jury about his activities. (The Verona intercepts also confirm Perl's espionage).
Because the government had evidence that Julius Rosenberg was part of a much broader Soviet operation, it sought to presure him into cooperating and providing evidence against others. It applied that pressure through Ethel Rosenberg. Her arrest and trial were in large part driven by the desire to force Julius to tell what he knew about other Soviet operations. The evidence was convincing that Ethel Rosenberg had assisted her husband in espionage, but her role was not as central as Julius's. Nonetheless, the prosecution treated her as a full partner in her husband's crimes. Judge Irving Kaufman, who presided over the trial, consulted the prosecution privately about the sentence. His decision execute Ethel appears to have been coordinated with the government's continued effort to force the Rosenbergs to cooperate. Up to their execution, both were told that cooperation would bring an immediate stay and a reconsideration of their sentences. Both Rosenbergs, however, were deeply committed Communists. They refused cooperation and went to their deaths claiming their complete innocence and even denying they were communists. The government's decision to use the threat of her execution to pressure Julius, and then following through on the threat when the pressure failed, was gruesome.
It can be questioned whether or not the US government was called for with its actions in Ethel's case (although, she was clearly guilty of espionage), but I don't think you can dismiss this 5th column espionage as "low-level."
Haynes, John E.Red Scare or Red Menace? American Communism and Anti-communism in the Cold War Era. Ivan R. Dee: Chicago, 1996. pg 57-60.
In regards to the codes you falsely claimed lies and revisionist:
"Gouzenko's information also assisted a super-secret American code-breaking project labeled Venona. In a major intelligence coup, American cryptographers in the late 1940s and 1950s partially decoded some 2,200 coded cables dating from 1942 to 1946 sent by Soviet diplomatic offices in the United States to Moscow, including messages from Soviet intelligence officers operating from these Soviet diplomatic missions. The Soviets had used a code they believed unbreakable, but American cryptographers discovered the Soviets had made technical errors that allowed the breaking of some of the coded messages. Not until 1995 did the US government begin releasing the Venona intercepts. These decoded cables, whose existence before 1995 was only rumored, indicated that about two-hundred Americans, many of them American Communist party members, were working for Soviet intelligence as spies.
Until the cold war ended American counterintelligence officials were adamant that the code-breaking success of Venona could not be revealed to the Soviets. Consequently, the evidence of spying provided by Venona could not be used in criminal court cases against Soviet spies. Thus in a number of cases where other sufficient evidence could not be found to bring a criminal charge, the identified spies were quietly eased out of military related work. Although this was the only sensible course, it left security officials highly frustrated that persons they knew to be Soviet spies were allowed to go free. Sometimes the frustrations led to leaks to Republicans of information about the spies who were allowed to go quietly. Often the leak suggested or was interpreted to be more evidence of a deliberate coverup of espionage."
Haynes, John E.Red Scare or Red Menace? American Communism and Anti-communism in the Cold War Era. Ivan R. Dee: Chicago, 1996. pg 55-56.
If you want to have a civilized debate, you might want to backpeddle on your personal attacks of me first.
Ethics
Yeehaw!
Verbose said:
Gitmo may be an eyesore to you and others, but to the American public its just as valid proof that the government is working to ensure our safety. The question has to be asked as to whether classified information and the sources of that information should be compromised to dismiss or convict. I tend to believe that information probably isnt worth declassifying (although this is just speculation on my part). The interesting thing here, is the government can play both sides of the fence due to the majority of these prisoners neither being American citizens, and not belonging to a recognized nations military in a combat zone. Maybe in some cases the risk of individuals being released will not effect American security in major ways. The flip side is, the government can look just as bad for releasing individuals who are suspected as terrorists .
...and the perfect oppurtunity for a Ph.D grad student to begin writing his dissertation
In 50 years nooone will care, but in 50 years the issue evidence, and consequences can be looked in an unbiased method (politics and biases are less likely to effect research on such topics). Now, with the possibility of such sensitive data being released, it is much more logical the evidence would be used as political firepower and not benefit the US in one way or the other. This is just too much of an emotionally and politically invested issue. Eh, you'll live to 2055. I'm somewhat in agreement with you on this, but without being able to see the documentation I'm just somewhat leery it should be released at this time. I guess the question is, can we censore the rights of a few for the greater good, or should we put the greater good at an expense for the rights of a few. Its a debatable question, and I'm not sure if theres a right answer that I can come to. Both sides have valid arguments.
h4ppy
You sir, pineapple?
I absolutely do beleive that it is an effective tactic and a smart policy by insurgents.nonconformist said:
Two girls (16 years old) were recently arrested near me for being potential suicide bombers. They're immigrants, one from Bangladesh, the other from Guinea.
Anyway, they also are not being allowed to see the evidence against them. From the New York Times article:
"A bond hearing in the Bangladeshi girl's case is to be held this morning in York, Pa., but the government has asked that it be closed, based on an affidavit filed by a counterterrorism supervisor in the F.B.I.'s New York office. The case underscores the difficulties faced by anyone who is charged only with civil immigration violations, but is in fact being held in a counterterrorism investigation, lawyers said.
There are no firm time limits on immigration detention, so the burden is on the girls to prove that they are not potential suicide bombers, rather than on the government to prove they are.
Indeed, the evidence is withheld from the girls and anyone who represents them under a "protective order" that F.B.I. investigators obtained from the immigration court, according to an April 1 motion to continue the secrecy, signed by Jeffrey T. Bubier, assistant chief counsel for the Department of Homeland Security in Philadelphia.
"The F.B.I. has an important and substantial interest in safeguarding the information," Mr. Bubier's motion stated, "to protect national security law and enforcement interests." To release it, he said, "places investigative strategies and methods at substantial risk."
The girls have no right to a court-appointed lawyer ..."
Link
Makes me ill.
Renata
Anyway, they also are not being allowed to see the evidence against them. From the New York Times article:
"A bond hearing in the Bangladeshi girl's case is to be held this morning in York, Pa., but the government has asked that it be closed, based on an affidavit filed by a counterterrorism supervisor in the F.B.I.'s New York office. The case underscores the difficulties faced by anyone who is charged only with civil immigration violations, but is in fact being held in a counterterrorism investigation, lawyers said.
There are no firm time limits on immigration detention, so the burden is on the girls to prove that they are not potential suicide bombers, rather than on the government to prove they are.
Indeed, the evidence is withheld from the girls and anyone who represents them under a "protective order" that F.B.I. investigators obtained from the immigration court, according to an April 1 motion to continue the secrecy, signed by Jeffrey T. Bubier, assistant chief counsel for the Department of Homeland Security in Philadelphia.
"The F.B.I. has an important and substantial interest in safeguarding the information," Mr. Bubier's motion stated, "to protect national security law and enforcement interests." To release it, he said, "places investigative strategies and methods at substantial risk."
The girls have no right to a court-appointed lawyer ..."
Link
Makes me ill.
Renata
BasketCase
Username sez it all
Say, a file that contains the name of a mole operating inside Al-Qaeda? BAM. The mole dies instantly. Even if the document does NOT contain a name, it reveals that Al-Qaeda sprang an info leak, so declassifying will cause Osama to close it the minute he reads about the leak on the CNN web site. And the CIA loses an intel source.Verbose said:What I'm suggesting is the US govt declassifying at least something to back up their claims for the necessity of Gitmo. They can make the selection, I don't mind...
A file full of satellite photos? Shows the bad guys how good our satellites are (movie: Patriot Games. Satellite flaw: the bad guys knew when the satellites passed overhead, and made sure all their people and gear were indoors at those times to prevent the U.S. from spotting their operation).
You get the idea.
Verbose said:
The Inquisition was allowed to not 'end' torture but only 'pause' it.
A confession under torture could be recalled later and was thus considered void. Torture, once ended, could not be applied again.
'well, we're not starting again, we just end the pause.....'
on topic:
hello?
hearsay, not admissable, jail the prosecutor!
Verbose
Deity
Of course I get the idea. Which is why I actually think I can leave it to the US authorities to exercise their discretion.BasketCase said:
All nations classify things like that. Standard practice is to omit names, blot out sensitive info etc. If very important the entire section mentioning a mole in the al Q can be exiced etc.
Oth, considering how long a lot of the people have been banged up, even once relevant info must be getting pretty cold by now.
There is nothing to indicate that the quality of the info the US has gotten out of Guantanamo has been very impressive. Especially since that kind of success would have been made widely known by US authorities.
In most countries you can at least get enough made oublic to give you an outline of the shape and size of the info gathered, even if the details remain obscure.
In this case what everybody gets is just a big blank and the US saying 'Trust us!'
And in the end, the idea of the US creating this kind of 'lawless zones' is a very, very hard sell anywhere in the world.
After several hundred years of not just making laws, but getting the means to actually make them apply just about everywhere, the US govt has suddenly decided the whole process is to onerous for them to stick to it.
Lazy buggers...
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