"You are not the master of the Earth, sir"

[eyrei]

I think everyone just needs to face the fact that Gitmo is the US governments attempt to hold people it considers dangerous when normally it wouldn't be able to for lack of hard evidence. Some of these guys really are terrorists, and some are people who were in the wrong place at the wrong time. The problem is not its existence, but that it is like a mental hospital in that once you are admitted, you have to prove yourself to get out, but everything you say or do is colored by the stigma that you are a terrorist. The people in charge of interogating these people are paranoid that they will let someone go who will commit an act of 'terror', and consider stopping terrorist attacks a higher priority than human rights. I also have a feeling that the shakeup of the US intelligence agencies is exacerbating the problem in that there is some confusion over who has jurisdiction.

The thing that really bothers me is that the Patriot Act makes it possible to hold these people within the US borders without letting them go, but they are still held in limbo like this. It really raises suspicion that there is something really wrong going on there.

 

[Erik Mesoy]

Some of these guys really are terrorists, and some are people who were in the wrong place at the wrong time. The problem is not its existence, but that it is like a mental hospital in that once you are admitted, you have to prove yourself to get out, but everything you say or do is colored by the stigma that you are a terrorist.

Very good analogy of a mental hospital. Given that everybody wants to get out, and insane doesn't imply stupid, the average Joe will be saying "Uh, but I'm okay, really, why am I here" and the brilliant lunatic may very well have a much more convincing argument.

But when all these people are being held hostage, and they aren't told what evidence is against them, it's like comitting someone to a mental hospital and then removing all criteria for sanity.



By the way...
While digging through the archives (see other thread), I uncovered this quote, by an American:

Yes, and we are forging international law against terrorism right now, with the cooperation of many other countries. And we will enforce it and uphold it. If you do not ENFORCE the law, then there is no law....

Where did the international law go?



I'm also feeling ill over the way the law is being abused and broken and ignored.

 

[BasketCase]

Laws all over the planet have been getting broken and ignored like this for as long as we've had laws.

It's impossible to have a perfect law system that never contradicts itself. The UN is having that problem right now. (Always did, really)

 

[carlosMM]

Laws all over the planet have been getting broken and ignored like this for as long as we've had laws.

It's impossible to have a perfect law system that never contradicts itself. The UN is having that problem right now. (Always did, really)

and how is this relevant to the case here, where the laws do not even contradict?

or are you just on an all-out US apologetics mission?

 

[Uiler]

Since people have brought up mental hospitals, in Stalin's Russia a common way to get rid of people such as opposition leaders, political enemies, authors and other incovenient personages was to committ them to a mental institute. Of course they were never found "sane"

Very good analogy of a mental hospital. Given that everybody wants to get out, and insane doesn't imply stupid, the average Joe will be saying "Uh, but I'm okay, really, why am I here" and the brilliant lunatic may very well have a much more convincing argument.

But when all these people are being held hostage, and they aren't told what evidence is against them, it's like comitting someone to a mental hospital and then removing all criteria for sanity.



By the way...
While digging through the archives (see other thread), I uncovered this quote, by an American:
Where did the international law go?



I'm also feeling ill over the way the law is being abused and broken and ignored.

 

[Verbose]

Laws all over the planet have been getting broken and ignored like this for as long as we've had laws.

It's impossible to have a perfect law system that never contradicts itself. The UN is having that problem right now. (Always did, really)

Which seems to amount to saying, that since you can't make an operating theatre 100% sterile, you might as well operate in a sewer?

 

[FriendlyFire]

ATTENTION ALL

I have a feeling that most didnt watch 60min story on "terrorist" who were realised from guitmo.
They follow the story of a very you 15 year old who was taken from a village in Afganistan. Amazingly he said he felt hes wasnt a prisoner but a Guest. He said they did not torture him, He was well treated, He was given books and education. (well he felt he learnt some english and science).

next they talked to personal at Gutimo. Basicly those who co-operate are given better food, larger cells, more freedom and are treated better. Werent strapped to a stretcher, chains and being confined to a tiny cell.

If Only the Bush admintration wasnt so secreative on Gutimo.
And didnt deport people to forgien countrys to be tortured.
They should have used simple no abusive russian phyological was to break the prisoners

 

[ainwood]

I don't really think how well they are being treated is the issue - a prisoner in the Hilton is still a prisoner.

 

[BasketCase]

Which seems to amount to saying, that since you can't make an operating theatre 100% sterile, you might as well operate in a sewer?

The prison system we've got accused terrorists cooped up in is no different from the U.S. police system: sometimes people are detained on false or otherwise screwed-up evidence. Sometimes a jailer flat-out breaks the law and takes liberties with the prisoners.

It's not enough here to just give a few examples of something that went wrong (though, if something does go wrong, by all means haul the person who did the wrong up in front of a court-martial). If violation of human rights is systemic and not just being committed by one or a few individuals--THEN it is the system (and not the bad apples in it) that are the problem.

But then, those who have convinced themselves that the U.S. is abusing and torturing prisoners wholesale don't need that. One example is enough for them, and I have no illusions that I'm going to change their opinion in five easy lessons. I'm not THAT good.

 

[Keirador]

This is not a new event that has come about under the Bush administration. Readers of Joseph Heller may remember Clevinger's trial. That side-splitting satire was based on the general attitude of the martial court system.

 

[Jack the Ripper]

'International' law is economic law. The powerwolves who run the world could care less about ethics. Ethical laws are only used to selectivly play countries against each-other for economic gain.

 

[Verbose]

The point of international legislation is to regulate the playing field for economic activity. Without it you don't get business, you get piracy; traditionally a respectable form of economic activity, but no longer.

If this wasn't the case everybody (not just the Chinese) would be taking a dump on things like the US patent laws.

 

[carlosMM]

The prison system we've got accused terrorists cooped up in is no different from the U.S. police system: sometimes people are detained on false or otherwise screwed-up evidence. Sometimes a jailer flat-out breaks the law and takes liberties with the prisoners.

So you are saying the US prison system jails people for no reason with no prosecution for years on a wholesale basis because of hearsay accusation sby known criminals?

if so - HEIL FBI!

It's not enough here to just give a few examples of something that went wrong (though, if something does go wrong, by all means haul the person who did the wrong up in front of a court-martial). If violation of human rights is systemic and not just being committed by one or a few individuals--THEN it is the system (and not the bad apples in it) that are the problem.

Which by now you should admit: that is IS a system that violates basic rights on a wholesale basis.

But then, those who have convinced themselves that the U.S. is abusing and torturing prisoners wholesale don't need that. One example is enough for them, and I have no illusions that I'm going to change their opinion in five easy lessons. I'm not THAT good.

Rather, there have been a few dozens of examples, out of roughly how mnany known cases? 100? 200?

if every fifth case is fishy, isn't that enough for you?



I wait for the day when they come to fetch you because I told them you write anti-Bush stuff here