Your Defenition of "the west"

[Kyriakos]

Ok, however i hope you accept that it is done in good spirit
I just am of the view that you try too much to place the CR in the "west" whereas no one was interested in throwing it out of the west to begin with, and while most people do not seem to care that much about such an umbrella term

 

[Winner]

I'd rather say bad timing.

Europeans, either because of the strenght and vitality of their culture, or by sheer luck, managed to kick start the industrial revolution, which gave them HUGE advantage over the rest of the World.

That's why they were so successful in conquering it. Even in Americas, Europeans won only because they were technically and socially superior to the natives. And they found it first, of course, because Chinese made the worst mistake in their history and fell into isolationism.

If they didn't, if they were more like Europeans, it would be them we would now complain about - those evil Chinese! They exploited us for centuries! Their troops forced us to open our ports for their merchant ships! Their economy dominates the global market! Their evil emperor wages war in Iraq only to get oil, that nonsense about WMD's and spreading of Confucian ideas is just a cover up! And look what they did to poor Africans, how they enslaved them! Terrible!

It's history. Europeans and their descendants were lucky. Now, the height of their power is long gone and the West is going to get weaker and weaker, compared to other civilizations. Maybe it will appease the West-haters.

 

[Winner]

Ok, however i hope you accept that it is done in good spirit
I just am of the view that you try too much to place the CR in the "west" whereas no one was interested in throwing it out of the west to begin with, and while most people do not seem to care that much about such an umbrella term

Actually, that is just plain wrong. I've never thought about Czech Rep. as part of the "East" (from geopolitical point of view, no "East" exists anymore). To anybody sane, countries like Poland, Czech Rep., Latvia or Hungary are parts of the Western civilization, they've been that way for a very, very long time.

Now perhaps if I were older and if I were raised in Communism, I'd probably try to show to everybody, that I am "Western", just to prove it to myself. But I don't need to. It would be like proving that my eyes are green.

Sure, if it makes you happier to think otherwise, feel free to do that

 

[Irish Caesar]

Culturally speaking, West is defined by:

[...]

5) Separation of the Church and the State - Church has never had a complete authority over the earthly matters

I assume you mean current separation of church and state, as religion was the way Europe ran for hundreds of years...

 

[Masquerouge]

I assume you mean current separation of church and state, as religion was the way Europe ran for hundreds of years...

Yeah, but it was not the Catholic church who had the temporal power, it was the Catholic kings. A subtle distinction.
But I agree with you

 

[Kyriakos]

Yeah, but it was not the Catholic church who had the temporal power, it was the Catholic kings. A subtle distinction.
But I agree with you

On the contrary, the catholic world was far more subordinate to the church than the orthodox one; take for example the pope and his kingdom.
In the byzantine empire the patriarch was just another member of the council of nobles and the two parties. This phenomenon has been called "caesaropapism" and its opposite (in the catholic world) "papocaesarism"

 

[Irish Caesar]

Yeah, but it was not the Catholic church who had the temporal power, it was the Catholic kings. A subtle distinction.
But I agree with you

Very subtle, as the end result was the same.

 

[Tank_Guy#3]

Warpus has it very close to my mindset, though I would include those Asiatic, and Eastern European countries in yellow (on rmsharpes post) to be Western too. Referring to page 1 of course.

To anybody sane, countries like Poland, Czech Rep., Latvia or Hungary are parts of the Western civilization, they've been that way for a very, very long time.

Uh-oh... That must explain why it's so cold, hell has frozen over. Winner and I are actually in agreement

 

[Dann]

If you are interested in an advanced analysis of the populations from the Balkans, you can look here:

Spoiler :

Here in the Balkans the most important groups are:

Slavs (the majority, most of the population of ex-Yugoslavia, Bulgaria, and some minorities from other countries, divided in proto-Serbs and Bulgarians),
Greeks (in Greece and some in Istanbul),
Turks (which are non-indo-europeans, living in Turkey, some in Bosnia and some - very little though - in the Romanian region of Dobrogrea, the only one that was fully conquered by the Ottomas),
Hungarians (which are different than them, but still non-indoeuropean, though the Magyar population was somewhat assimilated by the slavs and other surrounding poeple, so they can be considered European in culture and in maybe even in ethnicity),
Latins (Romania and about 80% of Moldavia, related in language, traditions and somewhat ethnicity to Italians and sometimes even to Spanish; very interesting how the Latin heritage was kept after 1000 years of being surrounded by slavs, hungarians and turks),
Romany people (gypsies, population that migrated from northern India to various parts from Europe, like Romania, Hungary and Spain),
People with mixed or uncertain origin, like Albanians or Aromanians.

So yeah it's really easy to make a mistake here, with about 10 different ethnicities concentrated in such an area!

Go Philippines!

Thank you. Culturally Philippines is closer to Mexico if anything so it should be part of the Latin grouping but it is also true that post WW2 her foreign policy had ALWAYS toed the line behind the US, thus earning her a spot in the "Western World" according to Huntington's map.

 

[Trajan12]

You're Filipino Dann? (What a stupid spelling in English, should be philipino)

 

[Dann]

Half Filipino half Chinese.

Yeah wonder who's the wise guy who decided on that spelling?

 

[TheBladeRoden]

*Ignores 6 pages*
Anything west of the Berlin Wall.

 

[knigh+]

Half Filipino half Chinese.

Yeah wonder who's the wise guy who decided on that spelling?

Isn't it the Spanish word, as English nation names don't have the -o suffix?

 

[amadeus]

Thank you. Culturally Philippines is closer to Mexico if anything so it should be part of the Latin grouping but it is also true that post WW2 her foreign policy had ALWAYS toed the line behind the US, thus earning her a spot in the "Western World" according to Huntington's map.

Well, if I ever had to flee the U.S. for an unknown reason, I'd probably wind up in Manila.

I've always wanted to try Jollibee.

 

[Dann]

Oh yes Jollibee. Philippines is the only country in the world where McDonald's has to be content with number 2 in the burgers market, beaten at their own game by a local chain.

 

[Mirc]

*Ignores 6 pages*
Anything west of the Berlin Wall.

So Austria is eastern, and Mali is western?

Culturally speaking, West is defined by:

1) Religion (what's now called the West used to be called the Western Christendom - Catholicism and Protestantism, without Orthodox Church)

2) Classical tradition of thought (originating in ancient Greece)

3) Individualism - more than in any other civilization, Western people place their interests above the interests of society

4) Representation - the Western civilization has a long tradition of representative institutions

5) Separation of the Church and the State - Church has never had a complete authority over the earthly matters

6) Rule of Law - since ancient Rome, there have been laws all people should observe, even the rulers

7) Pluralistic society

8) European languages

In this respect, I'll stick to the Huntington's map, with exceptions, of course.

EDIT: I think Huntington made the West too exclusive. Eastern Orthodox and Latin American civilizations are, compared to the others, still very close to the West. The question is if they're moving closer, or farther.

Spoiler :

I mostly agree with you, but there is a problem with Huntington's map, that you pointed out too: let's take Greece for example, it fulfills entirely the 2-8 "requirements" to be western, but on that map it isn't, only because it's Orthodox.


Edit: Sorry, I had to put your map in a spoiler. It looked fine in your post, but in a quote it was messing the tables.

 

[Pasi Nurminen]

Imperialism. One word is all you need.

 

[Winner]

I assume you mean current separation of church and state, as religion was the way Europe ran for hundreds of years...

No, I mean the Church-State dichotomy that has existed since the beginning of Christianity in Western Roman Empire.

Don't take me wrong, I don't say that Church hasn't had a huge influence, but there was a continual tension between Church and earthly politicans. Church in the West (not in the East, where Church and State actually merged) has always been a separate entity.

Wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_church_and_state_(medieval)

 

[Winner]

So Austria is eastern, and Mali is western?

I mostly agree with you, but there is a problem with Huntington's map, that you pointed out too: let's take Greece for example, it fulfills entirely the 2-8 "requirements" to be western, but on that map it isn't, only because it's Orthodox.

Edit: Sorry, I had to put your map in a spoiler. It looked fine in your post, but in a quote it was messing the tables.

Greece is a puzzle - I'd say they are half Western half "Eastern". Greece is the place where basics iof Western civilization were created, but for last 1,700 years, it has been a part of of the so-called Eastern (Orthodox) world. Byzantine Empire was non-western, as well as Ottoman Empire.

On the other hand, since they become independent, they move in Western direction.

It is hard to say where they belong more now. The same for Romania, Bulgaria or Ukraine - historically, they have been parts of the Eastern Orthodox civ, but they also move towards the West.

Personally I think that in the long term, Western civilization will include the Eastern Orthodox countries as well as Latin America. Compared to the others, they have so much in common.

 

[Swedishguy]

*Ignores 6 pages*
Anything west of the Berlin Wall.

So if an asian visits for example Holland, is he considered 'western'? Are some parts of Africa really 'western'? Is half of Germany 'eastern'?