2020 US Election (Part Two)

[onejayhawk]

Well you just passed 3k, USA will probably be the new Italy

Why do you say probably?

According to the board I am seeing, USA has passed 4500. However, the US mortality rate for confirmed cases is 1/5 Italy's and the mortality per million population is 1/15th. We have had a month to learn how to spot and treat the disease. Do you think that will have no affect?

J

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Is anyone surprised that the only person here believing Dingbat Don and the drug therapy claims is @onejayhawk? Stay away from the aquarium Jay.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Why do you say probably?

According to the board I am seeing, USA has passed 4500. However, the US mortality rate for confirmed cases is 1/5 Italy's and the mortality per million population is 1/15th. We have had a month to learn how to spot and treat the disease. Do you think that will have no affect?

J

The "treatment" of severe cases is put them on a ventilator and delay death. That's why we have a lower mortality rate in severe cases...because they haven't died yet.

 

[Zardnaar]

Why do you say probably?

According to the board I am seeing, USA has passed 4500. However, the US mortality rate for confirmed cases is 1/5 Italy's and the mortality per million population is 1/15th. We have had a month to learn how to spot and treat the disease. Do you think that will have no affect?

J

It's because you're hitting capacity on ventilators around about now.

With the growth rate if infections fairly soon if not now they are going to have to triage people.

That means the doctors get to chose who gets ventilators.

That's means a lot of people are gonna die. And Trump's on record downplaying things and claiming it's gone by April.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

It's because you're hitting capacity on ventilators around about now.

With the growth rate if infections fairly soon if not now they are going to have to triage people.

That means the doctors get to chose who gets ventilators.

That's means a lot of people are gonna die. And Trump's on record downplaying things and claiming it's gone by April.

There are only a couple places currently hitting the ventilator limits, not the whole country. I can't find any reliable statistics but the sense I'm getting is that for the most part all the ventilator really is is a delay. The people who die fast for lack of ventilators are going to be showing up in the statistics today, but they won't be showing up in the statistics ten days from now so it's a wash for the long run.

 

[Lemon Merchant]

I've never been there when it's happened, but I would imagine that having to triage someone to their death sucks big time for the health care workers. As well as the patient's family.

 

[Zardnaar]

I've never been there when it's happened, but I would imagine that having to triage someone to their death sucks big time for the health care workers. As well as the patient's family.

Yep, New York seems to be heading that way.

 

[IglooDame]

Have you seen the polling? Trump is above 47% approval for the first time. He has positive scores on his handling of the COVID-19 situation on every poll for over two weeks. Trump is seen as being Presidential.

Really, anything good that happens, Trump is taking or will take credit for, and anything bad that happens is someone else's fault. I suppose it is Presidential, even though it's the opposite of good leadership which typically involves accepting blame but passing on praise to one's subordinates.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I've never been there when it's happened, but I would imagine that having to triage someone to their death sucks big time for the health care workers. As well as the patient's family.

I have no doubt. Even if all they can really do is delay, health care workers are not geared for pulling the plug. Glad you haven't been there Lemon.

Related anecdote:

Spoiler :

My dad died, in the end, of pneumonia. The convalescent hospital knew it was coming, and so did we. The old guy had opted to have the fluid sucked out of his lungs a few weeks before, knowing that it was most likely just a delay, and there had been this whole drama of family coming to say goodbye with him expecting them to hang around until he lived or died, but they had gone home leaving me holding the bag with my mom.

Anyway, I take my mom to visit and she comes out to get me. I go in to see what's up and he is pulling himself up off the mattress to a full vertical sitting position, getting a sip of air, then falling back on the mattress. Gasp and repeat. So I tell the charge nurse that I want to see the doctor in charge and I go back outside so mom can go back and sit with him.

Eventually this doctor comes out and we talk about what to do. I said he was clearly miserable and needed some morphine. This guy tells me "I can't give him morphine because it will help him relax and he could die." MF, are you pretending that if he just stays miserable and can keep up the pace of those sit ups he isn't going to die? Anyway, he starts waffling and kicking at the grass and I had to pull out my dad's medical power of attorney and tell him that either my dad gets some morphine or he'll be needing it himself.

That's why despite mutual hatred that had cooled into just having no particular use for each other it was me that held his power of attorney, because he knew I'd do the right thing and not let some educated halfwit talk me out of it.

 

[Zardnaar]

I have no doubt. Even if all they can really do is delay, health care workers are not geared for pulling the plug. Glad you haven't been there Lemon.

Related anecdote:

Spoiler :

My dad died, in the end, of pneumonia. The convalescent hospital knew it was coming, and so did we. The old guy had opted to have the fluid sucked out of his lungs a few weeks before, knowing that it was most likely just a delay, and there had been this whole drama of family coming to say goodbye with him expecting them to hang around until he lived or died, but they had gone home leaving me holding the bag with my mom.

Anyway, I take my mom to visit and she comes out to get me. I go in to see what's up and he is pulling himself up off the mattress to a full vertical sitting position, getting a sip of air, then falling back on the mattress. Gasp and repeat. So I tell the charge nurse that I want to see the doctor in charge and I go back outside so mom can go back and sit with him.

Eventually this doctor comes out and we talk about what to do. I said he was clearly miserable and needed some morphine. This guy tells me "I can't give him morphine because it will help him relax and he could die." MF, are you pretending that if he just stays miserable and can keep up the pace of those sit ups he isn't going to die? Anyway, he starts waffling and kicking at the grass and I had to pull out my dad's medical power of attorney and tell him that either my dad gets some morphine or he'll be needing it himself.

That's why despite mutual hatred that had cooled into just having no particular use for each other it was me that held his power of attorney, because he knew I'd do the right thing and not let some educated halfwit talk me out of it.

With Corvid you don't get to say goodbye.

 

[Takhisis]

With Corvid

Nevermore.

Sorry, but I'm reading Poe and watching the Simpsons.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

With Corvid you don't get to say goodbye.

Yeah I skipped all that anyway.

 

[Zardnaar]

Yeah I skipped all that anyway.

I didn't get to say goodbye to mum as such. Two weeks before the end more or less had the thought it was goodbye.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I left nothing unsaid, but I had said all I had to say to my dad years before he died. During the big hurrah a couple weeks before he died my brother went in for the deathbed lovefest nonsense and pretended for a couple months that it had somehow made a difference. Getting his face laughed in a few times when he talked about how dad "really respected him, he said so" took care of that.

 

[Zardnaar]

I left nothing unsaid, but I had said all I had to say to my dad years before he died. During the big hurrah a couple weeks before he died my brother went in for the deathbed lovefest nonsense and pretended for a couple months that it had somehow made a difference. Getting his face laughed in a few times when he talked about how dad "really respected him, he said so" took care of that.

Most of the crap from Mum fell on my sisters shoulder.

Distance kept the boys away. Tried to visit as much as I could, brother was at the opposite end if the country.

No one was at her side right at the end as she was in an old folks home so sister got the call the next day.

We were all expecting it any day.

 

[Ironsided]

So this may be right...depending on virus concerns but having nothing to do with what you are constantly harping about...but let's say that as predictable you are dead wrong...what do we win?

That’s not at all what I’m alluding at. We know nothing about the Corona virus situation in November. Most likely it will be less severe in the summer and we may even have vaccines and stabilising drugs for autumn.

What we know is that Kerry did terrible playing on being not-GWB in 2004 and Romney did equally terrible on being the not-Obama for the conservatives. Being the not-Other guy is not driving Americans to the polls. If anything, the opposite is true. Candidates that project a clear message and a movement drive turn-out. I do however not expect you of all to admit it even if you get it.

 

[Takhisis]

Donald Trump ran on being anti-Obama (explicitly espoused birtherism) and anti-Clinton (need I quote examples?). amadeus, a poster here, has said he voted for Trump just to say ‘screw you, Obama’.

 

[Ironsided]

Trump didn’t run against Obama. Trump had a message, a movement and a vision (terrible but still). He ran against Clinton who had nothing but smug “not-Trump” rhetoric and lost as well. You are piling on my arguments, well done. (and Amadeus is IMO not a credible source on anything - he is a laissez-faire market rule all hard-core right-wing libertarian, why even bring him into this? He would most likely vote Trump to screw anyone on the left of Trump)


Had Trump ran against Bernie – Bernie would have likely won against Trump, and America would have been ten times more prepared to handle the corona virus crisis. Sanders would be able to drive through Medicare for all which at this moment in time has 55% public support. 52% amongst independent and undecided. He would sweep Trump this election on that issue alone. But we can't have that because of the corrupt democratic party rigging in #HidinBiden to champion their ticket to guaranteed electoral defeat – in a depression, a health crisis, against Trump. You could not make a situation up to be any sillier. It’s like a Monty Python sketch.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

That’s not at all what I’m alluding at. We know nothing about the Corona virus situation in November. Most likely it will be less severe in the summer and we may even have vaccines and stabilising drugs for autumn.

What we know is that Kerry did terrible playing on being not-GWB in 2004 and Romney did equally terrible on being the not-Obama for the conservatives. Being the not-Other guy is not driving Americans to the polls. If anything, the opposite is true. Candidates that project a clear message and a movement drive turn-out. I do however not expect you of all to admit it even if you get it.

As I said, when you turn out to be wrong what do we win?

 

[mitsho]

The problem is if he turns out to be right, we all lose a lot.

But that of course may also happen with Sanders as the nominee and the democratic decision of the Democratic Primary is quite clear, so the party has to (!) go with Biden, because that is what a (admittedly flawed) process decided on - or will when the primaries get taken up again. You can‘t change mid-stream, that‘s a founding principle of Democracy.

But I have to agree with one point: Biden really doesn‘t inspire enthusiasm. So it would be interesting if - like with the midterms - it is some congressional, senatorial and gubernatorial candidates that take the center stage and campaign hard and harshly. Maybe that‘s a tactic against Trump: Don‘t attack him, but make the Republican candidates defend him?