2020 US Election (Part Two)

[Patine]

NZ would be fun. It is a bit far from the grandchildren in St. Louis though. I'd want to rent rather than buy since It would only be a 4-5 year stay.

You make it sound like it's still the turn of the 20th Century and they'd be taking a steam liner.

 

[amadeus]

It is possible to travel by cargo ship. Given the distance though, it might be a month between Los Angeles and Auckland.

 

[Zardnaar]

You make it sound like it's still the turn of the 20th Century and they'd be taking a steam liner.

Convenient 20 hour flight that costs $2000.

 

[Birdjaguar]

And that is 20 hours each way. Prior to the pandemic we made 2-3 trips a year to visit. That's not impossible from NZ just harder.

 

[Zardnaar]

And that is 20 hours each way. Prior to the pandemic we made 2-3 trips a year to visit. That's not impossible from NZ just harder.

Yeah prices vary but to fly to Europe or USA the opportunity cost is something like a week or two at a nice resort in the South Pacific.

I've had friends fly to Australia for an afternoons shopping trip in Sydney.

I think Fiji is closer than Australia.

Realistically you're cutting yourself off from your family and friends for a long time.

I wouldn't come here unless you have half a million dollars or so or are recent university graduate with 6 figure job prospects.

Or a couple with similar prospect's.

Otherwise you're going to be perma renting for a long time.

Bare minimum would be a house deposit (35-70k USD) employment with double income household.

 

[Ironsided]

So basically, I think it's premature to write off Biden because he's too centrist and moderate when that actually seems to be what majority of actual voters want even if it's not what the vocal social media contingent want. He basically ignored woke twitter in its entirety and still pretty much crushed Bernie at the election as much as that sucks.

Once and for all. Biden did not crush Bernie. The blatantly partial party leadership, the media, and Bernie himself crushed Bernie. Biden is a phony and a goit. The manufactured consent is Biden “crushed” now after the full corporate media combined with Bernie Sanders himself grooming the electorate to think so for the Dems to have a better chance of defeating Donald Trump. Had EW dropped out for Bernie, endorsed him instead of calling him out on an out of the blue and false identity issues like the snake she morphed into (thanks Kamala staffers). Had EW held her initial convictions and positions more highly and coalesced behind them like the others did for Biden the primary race had been on fire and you would have been as likely to have a real agenda to fight Trump including M4A, a GND and all sorts of programs to lift poor America into productivity again. Like Nina said on CNN (paraphrasing): Bernie was the spark, and the fire is still burning, and in order to stop poor mans conflicts and degeneration you have to not only slay the neofascist dragon in the White House but also the neoliberal dragon waiting to take his place.

 

[Modder_Mode]

The U.S. President having the power to launch nuclear weapons without failsafes, advice from high-ranking officers that can easily be binding, the inability to physically enact the whole sequence on his own, and other protocols and such, but such having a "red button," or a "nuclear football," or codes he can just punch in when he feels like it, is Hollywood stuff. Everyone here is aware of that and not foolish to fall for such sensationalist cinematic portrayals - or are they?

I am aware there is a lot more involved in any army operation let alone any weapons launch than just the Presidents approval. My point was more tongue in cheek Patine, I am basically pointing out the double standards of Democrat voters. Don't you remember the claims about the nuclear codes being in Donald Trumps hands? Pretty much everything that Donald Trump was accused of during the last election campaign, Joe Biden has either done or been accused of by his victims. He takes creepy to a whole new level.

 

[Zardnaar]

Once and for all. Biden did not crush Bernie. The blatantly partial party leadership, the media, and Bernie himself crushed Bernie. Biden is a phony and a goit. The manufactured consent is Biden “crushed” now after the full corporate media combined with Bernie Sanders himself grooming the electorate to think so for the Dems to have a better chance of defeating Donald Trump. Had EW dropped out for Bernie, endorsed him instead of calling him out on an out of the blue and false identity issues like the snake she morphed into (thanks Kamala staffers). Had EW held her initial convictions and positions more highly and coalesced behind them like the others did for Biden the primary race had been on fire and you would have been as likely to have a real agenda to fight Trump including M4A, a GND and all sorts of programs to lift poor America into productivity again. Like Nina said on CNN (paraphrasing): Bernie was the spark, and the fire is still burning, and in order to stop poor mans conflicts and degeneration you have to not only slay the neofascist dragon in the White House but also the neoliberal dragon waiting to take his place.

You can always vote neo libs out or tea party the Dems over the next decade.

That's not really an option with the GoP.

Neo libs also don't care to much about social stuff and can respond to public pressure out of self preservation if nothing else.

 

[Patine]

Once and for all. Biden did not crush Bernie. The blatantly partial party leadership, the media, and Bernie himself crushed Bernie. Biden is a phony and a goit. The manufactured consent is Biden “crushed” now after the full corporate media combined with Bernie Sanders himself grooming the electorate to think so for the Dems to have a better chance of defeating Donald Trump. Had EW dropped out for Bernie, endorsed him instead of calling him out on an out of the blue and false identity issues like the snake she morphed into (thanks Kamala staffers). Had EW held her initial convictions and positions more highly and coalesced behind them like the others did for Biden the primary race had been on fire and you would have been as likely to have a real agenda to fight Trump including M4A, a GND and all sorts of programs to lift poor America into productivity again. Like Nina said on CNN (paraphrasing): Bernie was the spark, and the fire is still burning, and in order to stop poor mans conflicts and degeneration you have to not only slay the neofascist dragon in the White House but also the neoliberal dragon waiting to take his place.

That, and it still seems to be unshakable majority consensus here that the U.S. Major Party Primary Election process is actually in any meaningful way, at the end of the day, a system that actually represents the will of the rank-and-file registered as "member," of the party, despite blatant and obvious strong evidence otherwise.

 

[Sommerswerd]

You'll need half a million to a million dollars and/or a 6 figure income to really enjoy it here though.

That could pretty much be said for everywhere tho...

Once and for all. Biden did not crush Bernie.

"Once and for all." Biden did crush Bernie. The laundry list of reasons and/or excuses for why this happened does not change the fact that it happened. Bernie lost... badly. It was disappointing to me, it was disappointing to you, it was disappointing to alot of us. But being in denial about it won't change it.

And saying "once and for all" isn't going to stop people from pointing it out. If what you mean by "once and for all" is that your mind is irreversibly made up on the subject and you don't want to discuss it anymore, then just drop it or whatever, but your "once and for all" isn't convincing anyone. Folks are going to keep pointing out that Bernie got spanked... because he did.

 

[amadeus]

What I'm reading is that if Sanders had been a better candidate and had less competition, he might have won.

Also, I have a seven-figure income. Just don't measure it in dollars.

 

[Patine]

if Sanders had been a better candidate

Are you REALLY deluded and naïve enough to think that Electoral Politics is about "higher quality," candidates winning?

 

[amadeus]

Are you REALLY deluded and naïve enough to think that Electoral Politics is about "higher quality," candidates winning?

Choose your own adventure post M.K. II

Spoiler the one that upsets people :

Yes, because the Republicans won in 2016.

Spoiler just kidding, this one upsets people too :

Yes, because the Democrats won in 2008 and 2012.

 

[Commodore]

Once and for all. Biden did not crush Bernie. The blatantly partial party leadership, the media, and Bernie himself crushed Bernie. Biden is a phony and a goit. The manufactured consent is Biden “crushed” now after the full corporate media combined with Bernie Sanders himself grooming the electorate to think so for the Dems to have a better chance of defeating Donald Trump. Had EW dropped out for Bernie, endorsed him instead of calling him out on an out of the blue and false identity issues like the snake she morphed into (thanks Kamala staffers). Had EW held her initial convictions and positions more highly and coalesced behind them like the others did for Biden the primary race had been on fire and you would have been as likely to have a real agenda to fight Trump including M4A, a GND and all sorts of programs to lift poor America into productivity again. Like Nina said on CNN (paraphrasing): Bernie was the spark, and the fire is still burning, and in order to stop poor mans conflicts and degeneration you have to not only slay the neofascist dragon in the White House but also the neoliberal dragon waiting to take his place.

Maybe the party leadership would have actually been behind Bernie if he were, you know, actually a member of the party.

When you are an outsider that is essentially trying to stage a hostile takeover of a party, like Bernie was, you can't really be surprised when that party resists you every step of the way regardless of how much support you may have from "the people".

 

[Ironsided]

"Once and for all." Biden did crush Bernie. The laundry list of reasons and/or excuses for why this happened does not change the fact that it happened. Bernie lost... badly. It was disappointing to me, it was disappointing to you, it was disappointing to alot of us. But being in denial about it won't change it.

And saying "once and for all" isn't going to stop people from pointing it out. If what you mean by "once and for all" is that your mind is irreversibly made up on the subject and you don't want to discuss it anymore, then just drop it or whatever, but your "once and for all" isn't convincing anyone. Folks are going to keep pointing out that Bernie got spanked... because he did.

Read again. I’m not arguing the official result and outcome. I’m just saying Biden did diddly squat hovering in 4th to 5th place with zero enthusiasm generated and was basically handed the primary election by the Dem leadership, media and corporate threats.

And it was not that disappointing to you Sommer. You are just imo dishonest about your blatant blue-no-matter-what-position. You have claimed to support Kamala, EW and a tactical vote for Bernie, probably more positions. You rarely discuss or invest in the issues, just the game. You just want to be a part of it and make noise and echoes.

 

[Patine]

Maybe the party leadership would have actually been behind Bernie if he were, you know, actually a member of the party.

When you are an outsider that is essentially trying to stage a hostile takeover of a party, like Bernie was, you can't really be surprised when that party resists you every step of the way regardless of how much support you may have from "the people".

Somehow Trump got away from exactly that sort of hostile takeover as an outsider in the Republican Party (former Democrat until 1999, then a card-holding member of, and mulled candidate for, Ross Perot's Reform Party from 1999-2013 - only declared himself a Republican less than two years before filing his Primary candidacy in 2015), so if it weren't for that, I'd be inclined to believe that major party leadership has any, true vested interest in locking out outsiders of the major parties from leadership or candidacy. I figure it must be something more insidious.

 

[Sommerswerd]

Read again. I’m not arguing the official result and outcome. I’m just saying Biden did diddly squat hovering in 4th to 5th place with zero enthusiasm generated and was basically handed the primary election by the Dem leadership, media and corporate threats.

And it was not that disappointing to you Sommer. You are just imo dishonest about your blatant blue-no-matter-what-position. You have claimed to support Kamala, EW and a tactical vote for Bernie, probably more positions. You rarely discuss or invest in the issues, just the game. You just want to be a part of it and make noise and echoes.

You're conflating your level of disappointment with mine. Your ego is so inflated, that you are only thinking in terms of your own feelings. When you say I wasn't "that" disappointed, what you mean is that I wasn't as disappointed as you were... but that's irrelevant. I voted for Bernie, against my first choice precisely because I saw Bernie as the only hope to defeat Biden. So to deny that I was disappointed that Bernie lost is the height of dishonesty, because I voted for him. Further to imply that I wanted Biden to win at all costs is outright absurd, because I explicitly voted against my first choice to prevent Biden from winning.

To the extent that your "blue-no-matter-what" accusation is intending to state that in this cycle I would have voted for any Democratic nominee, including Bernie, who is not an actual Democrat... you are correct, and I make no apologies for that. To the extent that you are meaning to say that I was a Democrat-no-matter-what voter... the fact that I voted for Bernie soundly debunks that narrative.

And I "rarely discuss or invest in the issues"?? What the eff are you smoking? I have over SEVENTEEN THOUSAND posts... you have 1,100. GTFOH with that BS.

In other words, you're wrong, and your argument is patently absurd on its face. All that is happening is that you are projecting your "Democratic-establishment voter" boogeyman onto me. But I'm having none of it.

 

[Commodore]

Somehow Trump got away from exactly that sort of hostile takeover as an outsider in the Republican Party (former Democrat until 1999, then a card-holding member of, and mulled candidate for, Ross Perot's Reform Party from 1999-2013 - only declared himself a Republican less than two years before filing his Primary candidacy in 2015), so if it weren't for that, I'd be inclined to believe that major party leadership has any, true vested interest in locking out outsiders of the major parties from leadership or candidacy. I figure it must be something more insidious.

The Republican leadership definitely tried their hardest to resist Trump. Remember the "Never Trumpers"? Problem is, all the Never Trumpers were soundly defeated by Trump and were forced to either fall in line with Trump or leave the party.

Both Bernie and Trump were outsiders resisted by their party leadership. The only difference between them in that regard is Trump managed a successful takeover while Bernie did not.

 

[Sommerswerd]

You can always vote neo libs out or tea party the Dems over the next decade.

That's not really an option with the GoP.

Neo libs also don't care to much about social stuff and can respond to public pressure out of self preservation if nothing else.

I think that a Biden loss this cycle may end up being similar to the Romney loss in 2012. It will be the straw that breaks the camel's back in terms of polarizing the Democratic electorate. "Lost cause Hillary specifically" is an OK excuse, but Hillary is gone, so if the moderate loses again, it will be much harder to spin that as anything other than proof that moderates can't win.

Maybe the party leadership would have actually been behind Bernie if he were, you know, actually a member of the party.

When you are an outsider that is essentially trying to stage a hostile takeover of a party, like Bernie was, you can't really be surprised when that party resists you every step of the way regardless of how much support you may have from "the people".

I think this worked for Trump, because of what I said above, not just the fact that he was an actual Republican. Trump did stage a takeover of the party, but he did so by staking his territory farthest right and taking moderates for granted rather than the other way around. McCain and Romney's losses proved that tacking moderate was a losing strategy for Republicans. Hillary and Biden's losses might do the same for Democrats.

 

[Sommerswerd]

The Republican leadership definitely tried their hardest to resist Trump. Remember the "Never Trumpers"? Problem is, all the Never Trumpers were soundly defeated by Trump and were forced to either fall in line with Trump or leave the party.

Both Bernie and Trump were outsiders resisted by their party leadership. The only difference between them in that regard is Trump managed a successful takeover while Bernie did not.

Indeed, and there is an important parallel to take note of between Trump's win and Bernie's loss. With Trump, the Republican moderates/establishment/leaders etc., failed to read the writing on the wall and consolidate/drop out early in support of one flag-bearer for the party. If they had all dropped out early and united behind Rubio, Christie, Cruz, Kasich or Jeb, they probably would have beaten Trump back. But they were all too selfish and/or egotistical and/or greedy to do this. So too many of them stayed in for too long, allowing Trump to win all the delegates with pluralities.

The Democrats learned from the Republicans' mistake and consolidated early, before Bernie could gain any momentum.