3rd and 4th Unique Components for VP - Official thread 87

[pineappledan]

By the way, could you give me the name of the authors for the icon and models of the two new units you've added in v.60 ? I would like to make a new streamlined excel authors namelist (including, of course, those made by the team).

I updated the credits in the excel and the txt files with the latest version

Are the models you're talking about from the Ethnic Diversity mod, or did you find more interesting things during your research for Incan UCs some time ago ?

inca unit model search results

Well, we actually had this conversation a few years ago : if we follow your logic, then the Chasqui shouldn't be a unique military unit at all, since they weren't supposed to fight, but only to transmit messages. In the end, since we actually use this unit as a Scout replacement, giving it ways to emphasize its traditionnal role as a messenger would be quite flavorful. That said, the fact is that the Legion and the Chasqui are from very different unit class (the first being deployed en masse, the second as an auxiliary on the flanks), and that improvement-building is a core element of the Legion identity while more of a "cherry-on-top" bonus for the Chasqui.

A medic promotion, or something that is a unique medic promotion that stacks would be fine; scouts already have access to the medic line.

The most unique aspect of the Tawantinsuyu armies, from my perspective, is already captured by the Qullqa. The tactics and weapons of the Inca were not remarkable, but their administrative and logistic capacity was centuries ahead of even contemporary European powers. Given this focus on infrastructure and administration, a support unit would be fitting.

 

[Patee]

Should Steelmill grant 3 coal whem constructed?

 

[pineappledan]

No. The refinery already gives coal. steam mills don’t cost coal to build; That’s already net +1 coal.

 

[rp03ev]

how do u install this? the zip folder contains ton of folders...do i just unpack everything in the /MODS?

 

[Dimmy]

Extract all folders that are in the zip to only 1 folder and move it to /MODS yes.

 

[pineappledan]

update:
instant culture yields from buildings now contribute to local border growth

 

[Drakle]

update:
instant culture yields from buildings now contribute to local border growth

Good for Carthage. Their shrine missing that was a bit odd, and weakened a somewhat underpowered UB.

 

[Geminus Leonem]

Just tried the submod out and man is it great!

I gotta be honest though... a few of these picks for Uniques are quite the stretch. With the germanic tribal warrior for the otherwise German civ I just twitched my nose a tad. After the turkish-ruled greek rebel unit, for what is clearly an Ancient Greek civ, I started frowning a bit. But when I saw the Arabian slave unit for Ancient Egypt I just straight up laughed.

But hey! This is the game that has Polynesia and Celts as Civs, plus the Vox Populi mod hilariously chose the "Harappan Reservoir" for India's unique Building, which is the biggest of all stretches, so... eh... I guess consistency doesn't really matter.

Anyway, thanks for the great work guys!

 

[pineappledan]

I see you subscribe to JFD's school of thought, where civilizations should ideally reflect a period of of culture, rather than 'lumping'.

I'm a fan of the lumping, since it lets us spread components across multiple eras, and give civs new toys to unlock gradually through the eras. I think a bit of incoherence is acceptable if the alternative is oversplitting. Rome and Byzantium existing simulteneously, for example, causes its own unique design issues.

- The vanilla German UA was a reference to the old Germanic tribes. Arminius is still considered a founding culture hero of the German state.
- The Klephts and Armatoloi formed the basis for the modern Greek army, which aspires to continuity with the ancient Greek polities. It's at least as coherent as the idea of a grab-bag collection of incessantly infighting city-states, ruled over by a Macedonian emperor as its own civ.
- Many of the Mamluks were Copts, so I figured there was at least a partial ethnic continuity to Egypt, in addition to the geographic continuity.

 

[adan_eslavo]

Just tried the submod out and man is it great!

I gotta be honest though... a few of these picks for Uniques are quite the stretch. With the germanic tribal warrior for the otherwise German civ I just twitched my nose a tad. After the turkish-ruled greek rebel unit, for what is clearly an Ancient Greek civ, I started frowning a bit. But when I saw the Arabian slave unit for Ancient Egypt I just straight up laughed.

But hey! This is the game that has Polynesia and Celts as Civs, plus the Vox Populi mod hilariously chose the "Harappan Reservoir" for India's unique Building, which is the biggest of all stretches, so... eh... I guess consistency doesn't really matter.

Anyway, thanks for the great work guys!

I see you subscribe to JFD's school of thought, where civilizations should ideally reflect a period of of culture, rather than 'lumping'.

I'm a fan of the lumping, since it lets us spread components across multiple eras, and give civs new toys to unlock gradually through the eras. I think a bit of incoherence is acceptable if the alternative is oversplitting. Rome and Byzantium existing simulteneously, for example, causes its own unique design issues.

- The vanilla German UA was a reference to the old Germanic tribes. Arminius is still considered a founding culture hero of the German state.
- The Klephts and Armatoloi formed the basis for the modern Greek army, which aspires to continuity with the ancient Greek polities. It's at least as coherent as the idea of a grab-bag collection of incessantly infighting city-states, ruled over by a Macedonian emperor as its own civ.
- Many of the Mamluks were Copts, so I figured there was at least a partial ethnic continuity to Egypt, in addition to the geographic continuity.

All units were introduced after hours of discussions. Mamluks substituted Khopesh, who generated more problems than solved. Personally German and Greek units are original concepts I like very much. I remember hours spent on programming Klepht and his notifications Germany is not only WWI and WWII period, but also early medieval tribes. This changes Germany into early warmonger civ, which is awesome.

BTW @pineappledan Did you make those changes to github we talked about earlier? I mean update to civ5proj file?

 

[pineappledan]

BTW @pineappledan Did you make those changes to github we talked about earlier? I mean update to civ5proj file?

Not yet.

In other news, I'm purchasing a microphone tonight, so I will be able to record those lines soon.

 

[adan_eslavo]

Not yet.

In other news, I'm purchasing a microphone tonight, so I will be able to record those lines soon.

Oh, gosh, that's wonderful news!
I will have to find time between coding and art creating and modeling to to audio stuff tuning Cannot wait for that.

I though how to add sounds for NWs quotes, but I have no idea for the moment.

 

[FoxOfWar]

Haven't commented in a while, but that's honestly because I haven't found anything of note to poke at - this modmod is definitely nearing a pretty solid place. I enjoy pretty much every piece of unique I stumble across, and planning around them (mine and competitors) is fun.

I'll note that I am a fun of 'lumping', as it makes civs feel more relevant and different across the ages more, and lessens tech/era-related power spikes somewhat.

Keep up the good work, polishing this even more

 

[adan_eslavo]

Keep up the good work, polishing this even more

Lately polishing changed into redesigning It's good piny keeps it alive.

 

[Geminus Leonem]

All units were introduced after hours of discussions. Mamluks substituted Khopesh, who generated more problems than solved.

I assume that you mean it generated problems gameplay-wise? Because the Mamluks generate way, WAY, WAAAAAAAAAY too many problems concept-wise. It's almost ridiculous how many problems it brings to the table.

You got:

• The deterministic attitude that they invoke, giving the idea that Ancient Egypt is predestined to ALWAYS be conquered and turned into Arabian Egypt, which just by itself goes against the very basic Civ fantasy of building up a bygone Civilization to the Modern Era and should have been enough to end the thought of including them by itself.
  • This is also kinda present with the Klepht, though their issue is more how disjointed the Greek Civ becomes with them. "Greece" with this sub-mod ends up representing Ancient Greece and Modern Greece but not Medieval Greece. This kinda makes it look like the sub-mod is accidentally (I assume) claiming that Byzantium was foreign to Greece itself and should be disregarded (which is a sad and oddly prevailing sentiment in some communities) while the Vanilla game and Vox Populi appear to simply imply that Byzantium wasn't Ancient Greece. A big difference and also a nasty problem.
• The fact that the Mamluks were not really Egyptian. They were neither founded in Egypt nor were they culturally Egyptian. And I am not even going with the argument that Kemet and Misr are, by all measures, two different Civs, otherwise, I fear I would once again get a headache with the resulting discourse. (Nothing personal or anything, I just had a nasty conversation with a rather spirited nationalistic Egyptian fella once)
• The complete disregard of Ancient Egyptian culture. Which, for some reason, is still deemed an ok thing to do... I mean, this was one of the longest standing Cultures in the world! More than 2000 years of history! Multiple dynasties, unique technological advancements, and a unique social structure! And all of that is sidelined for their 2nd unit where a Unit from one of their conquerors is chosen instead... that is just sad, man...
• The incredibly awkward precedent that is left. After all, if the Abbasid created Mamlukes are an Egyptian Unique Unit then nothing is stopping the Condottiere from being a Roman Unique Unit or an Ilkhanate Horseman being a Babylonian Unit since they fill the same prerequisites of Geography, Ancestry, Importance, and the whole "Spreading the Uniques more Broadly" thing... Please don't do this btw, I am being silly but I fear someone might actually go with it...

Edit: Man... the more I think about the Mamluk unit replacing the underrepresented Khopesh Swordman the more bummed out I get... I don't suppose you guys could keep the Khopesh files in the mod to allow players to toggle between Unique Units through some files or something?

 

[Kim Dong Un]

I'm no well-rounded historian like a lot of the members here, but I agree with all of the above. My only beef with the Khopesh is, and always was, the promotion being counter-productive alongside the War Chariot.

I'm sure Dan is thrilled to see the Khopesh/Mamluk brought up again already

 

[pineappledan]

Ecstatic...

I can re-add the khopesh unit and keep it there inactive for anyone who wants and knows how to activate it. I’m a bit concerned about setting a precedent here though.

 

[Geminus Leonem]

Ecstatic...

I can re-add the khopesh unit and keep it there inactive for anyone who wants and knows how to activate it. I’m a bit concerned about setting a precedent here though.

Ah. Sorry if I am being bothersome about this. I know it's your submod and you have all the right to do whatever you want with it but I really felt like answering to adan's "Kopesh are more problematic than Mamluks" bit. Which I assume was a provocation or an inside joke of some sort?

I also should point out that I am pretty new to the submod and I have no idea what the reasons were for the inclusion of the Mamlukes as the Unique Unit of the Egyptian Civ instead of the Arabian Civ. So if the points about determinism, cultural misrepresentation, or the dreadfully bogus "blood ties over cultural ties" have been brought up before and somehow refuted (which I admit, I have never seen it be done successfully before), then again, I apologize.

Anyway, I would be really thankful if you could just let the Kopesh stay in the mod even if just as a substitute unit that I have no idea how to enable... but I will learn it if that means I can play a Kemetic game from start to finish!

 

[Drakle]

Ah. Sorry if I am being bothersome about this. I know it's your submod and you have all the right to do whatever you want with it but I really felt like answering to adan's "Kopesh are more problematic than Mamluks" bit. Which I assume was a provocation or an inside joke of some sort?

I also should point out that I am pretty new to the submod and I have no idea what the reasons were for the inclusion of the Mamlukes as the Unique Unit of the Egyptian Civ instead of the Arabian Civ. So if the points about determinism, cultural misrepresentation, or the dreadfully bogus "blood ties over cultural ties" have been brought up before and somehow refuted (which I admit, I have never seen it be done successfully before), then again, I apologize.

Anyway, I would be really thankful if you could just let the Kopesh stay in the mod even if just as a substitute unit that I have no idea how to enable... but I will learn it if that means I can play a Kemetic game from start to finish!

Many people, including myself didn't like the fact that Egypt's UU which share a era have conflicting promotions, instead of working together. One grants yields on kills, while the other gets a bonus to attacking damaged units, which it will likely kill in doing so.

I first suggested just changing the promotion, but Dan refused and preferred changing the unit altogether.

 

[Kim Dong Un]

I first suggested just changing the promotion, but Dan refused and preferred changing the unit altogether.

Yeah, Dan is the man, but I don't really understand why the promotion just wasn't adjusted first. I'd have to go back and look at the posts, but he must've been pretty adamant about not budging on the promo, if he resorted to replacing the unit altogether.

Our intentions are good, Sir Pineapple