3rd and 4th Unique Components for VP - Official thread 87

[pineappledan]

Or if you want the promotion to actually be Cetbang, maybe instead of firing in a turn, the ship can do small damage to all units in its radius. Lots of swivel cannons aimed at individual targets, instead of all focused on one.

i like this idea, not least if all because it is existing, unused code. The Djong could provide -10 damage to all adjacent enemy units every turn (which works well for a ranged unit that you generally don’t want to put up in people’s face) maybe I reduce the move to the base 3 and increase CS slightly?

 

[JohnnyNT]

Minor bug with landwehr, it has double "Field works" promotion ikon in the Civilopedia

Spoiler Image :

 

[pineappledan]

v60 posted:

v60:
- changes
    - Egyptian Khopesh (spearman) replaced with Mamluk (Lancer)
    - Indonesian Prau (Trireme) replaced with Djong (Galleass)
- tweaked/modified:
    - Monitor now has same base movement as the ironclad (no more double movement in coast)
    - Increased base culture of Iziko to 3
    - Chasqui now unlock at Writing
    - updated text issues
    - Reduced Great Bombard's Sahi Topu self-damage to 15. removed +10 healing in friendly lands. No longer has City Siege promotion
    - Reduced Etemenanki's national population requirement to 15
    - Removed Iron Chariot's Rough Terrain Penalty and fixed the lua errors.

 

[adan_eslavo]

v60 posted:

v60:
- changes
    - Egyptian Khopesh (spearman) replaced with Mamluk (Lancer)
    - Indonesian Prau (Trireme) replaced with Djong (Galleass)
- tweaked/modified:
    - Monitor now has same base movement as the ironclad (no more double movement in coast)
    - Increased base culture of Iziko to 3
    - Chasqui now unlock at Writing
    - updated text issues
    - Reduced Great Bombard's Sahi Topu self-damage to 15. removed +10 healing in friendly lands. No longer has City Siege promotion
    - Reduced Etemenanki's national population requirement to 15
    - Removed Iron Chariot's Rough Terrain Penalty and fixed the lua errors.

Quite radical changes (Khopesh, Sahi Topu).

 

[pineappledan]

The city siege promotion thing was just a bug; they had both city siege and city assault.
The Sahi Topu adjustment is just an experiment. People have been complaining he is too good, might revert.
Probably 1/4 of the feedback I have been getting in the last 6 months is complaints about the Khopesh; this spreads Egypt out a little better.

 

[adan_eslavo]

The city siege promotion thing was just a bug; they had both city siege and city assault.
The Sahi Topu adjustment is just an experiment. People have been complaining he is too good, might revert.
Probably 1/4 of the feedback I have been getting in the last 6 months is complaints about the Khopesh; this spreads Egypt out a little better.

As far as I remember, stacking prmotions on Bombard were done on purpose, just to avoid making another promotion. Maybe there were some updates in VP in the meantime which broke the balance
Spreading is always a good thing. They had almost all early UCs, so Mamluk is ok, if consistent with the egyptian culture.

 

[pineappledan]

As far as I remember, stacking prmotions on Bombard were done on purpose, just to avoid making another promotion. Maybe there were some updates in VP in the meantime which broke the balance
Spreading is always a good thing. They had almost all early UCs, so Mamluk is ok, if consistent with the egyptian culture.

maybe it was changed. Siege gives 200% vs cities and assault gives 300%, so the bombard, which also gets free volley from the ottoman UB, is getting 550% vs cities, which is a bit much.

I was resistant to the change because I didn’t want to use units from post-Islam Egypt, but they wore me down

 

[adan_eslavo]

maybe it was changed. Siege gives 200% vs cities and assault gives 300%, so the bombard, which also gets free volley from the ottoman UB, is getting 550% vs cities, which is a bit much.

I was resistant to the change because I didn’t want to use units from post-Islam Egypt, but they wore me down

Old Egypt and post-islamic Egypt are like two totally different worlds. Did you delete Khopesh or leave it as an option ready to resurrect?

 

[pineappledan]

Old Egypt and post-islamic Egypt are like two totally different worlds. Did you delete Khopesh or leave it as an option ready to resurrect?

As is Ulfheddin and Panzer for Germany, or hoplite and klepht for Greece. I took the khopesh out. The files are all available in older versions if we want to revert it. I didn’t think it was right to squat on those assets if they weren’t fully integrated

 

[adan_eslavo]

As is Ulfheddin and Panzer for Germany, or hoplite and klepht for Greece. I took the khopesh out. The files are all available in older versions if we want to revert it. I didn’t think it was right to squat on those assets if they weren’t fully integrated

Only first page's picture needs to be updated (still has Khopesh )

 

[adan_eslavo]

I downloaded Github files. Seems like you've changed only file list for mod, but not the file list in project, so I still can see Khopesh files and folders, but not Mamluk ones in ModBuddy. There's probably problem with rest similar changes adding/deleting files in project folder. I'm unable to compile the project without generating errors.

It is important, because if I change something I cannot compile project to see if it works. Just in case.

 

[pineappledan]

I dont usually compile in modbuddy; I edited the modinfo file directly in notepad for the latest release.

I haven’t taken the time yet to change the .proj file, because it’s too tedious, I wanted to get the release out by the weekend.

I also changed the files for Indonesia’s Djong and China’s xiafan guanjun, so those are also likely causing errors

 

[adan_eslavo]

Ahh, ok. Nevertheless, it would be good to update it too, in the meantime.

 

[Pill]

I'm trying the Incas so far and am finding their Chasqui scout a bit lackluster compared to most things in this great mod. It doesn't seem to.. have a purpose?
The other scout UU that Polynesia has is useful for Polynesia's early-exploration playstyle and expansion into barbarian infested islands.

I would like to see maybe giving the Chasqui a unique mini-medic or mini-great general aura instead of the boosted self-healing to represent the Chasqui's supportive role in the Incan Empire (at least that's what Wikipedia tells me...). It would fit with the military-oriented but defensive playstyle of the Inca too.

 

[Drakle]

As a suggestion for an alternative Incan UU.

Incan expansion was characterized by them levying vast armies (for the Andes) that would arrive and intimidate enemy populations (who were often outnumbered by the Incan, since mountain populations created a lot of fragmented populations). They could do so because of rapid transfer along roads they set up.

So suggestion. A Warrior/Spearman/Swordsman Replacement. One that can build roads. The no supply cost seems to be bugged, so maybe that won't be included.

Ideas for promotions
-has bonus strength if standing on a road connected to a city (if possible in terms of coding). So strong defensive, and offensive if it is built up in the enemy territory.
-Bonuses to sieging cities. Either for the unit itself, or supporting attacking units.
-Flanking bonus and ignore ZOC through roads and hills. Surround enemies in home turf and hilly areas, and then attack them on all sides.

 

[Hinin]

Something you must keep in mind is that our choices in term of UCs (and most particularly unique units, because of the 3d models required) are limited by the ressources we have at our disposition. The chasqui model and icon are particularly good and have been used thanks to the authorization of JTitan and Leugi. This, plus the fact that there is almost no incan civ mod, means that, except for a surprise, we'll have to keep this unit for the UC.

That said, modifying the bonus of the unit can indeed still be discussed, even more when it happens that pineappledan just added a new bonus to the unit through a Sailing->Writing tech displacement. The chasqui is in a bizarre spot right now : it must be one of the units that has known the must changes, but it still appears a bit bland. Its purpose as a unit is supposed to be that of a inland scout that can later serve a defensive purpose : with its bonus, it can quickly reposition and defend secondary shockpoints. That said, I agree that it is not really satisfying, and its role can be fulfilled by other units quite easily...


My idea is to keep the identity of the unit as a communication-focused scout (being messengers, chasqui aren't really meant to be a militant unit), so no additionnal combat bonus, but make it a sort of all-purpose unit.

For that, giving it the ability to build/remove roads seems indeed a good beginning : in times of peace, it shows how chasqui are a crucial part of the Incan communication system (workers will be working enough on putting terrace farms everywhere in the early classical era) ; in times of war, having units with high defense (through survivalism promotions) and capable of creating highways for troops seems good enough (plus it synergizes with the monopoly bonus given by the unique Incan granary).

For the other bonus, we should discuss a bit more : a medic bonus seems logical enough at first sight, but this has several problems. First, it overlaps with the other healing sources the unit has (unique promotion + survivalism). Second, it would mean putting the unit in the backline for most of the fight because of the defense malus this kind of promotion gives (which would contradict its other bonus). Do you have ideas on that matter, @pineappledan, @adan_eslavo ?

 

[Pill]

Adding road-building functionality seems like a super cool and flavorful concept.

Keeping it as a scout UU is fine, but adding some utility would be helpful. Forcing a scout into a frontline combat-oriented unit like it currently is seems counter intuitive, you're not going to spam them to create a frontline since you're not going to be creating more than 1-2 scouts unless you plan on making a future zeppelin army or something.

 

[Asterix Rage]

The chasqui model and icon are particularly good

From modding point of view, that's everything.

 

[pineappledan]

Inca are actually a rare exception, in that we have lots of unit models for various ancient and classical footsoldiers. However, I can’t think of a more emblematic unit for the Inca than the chasqui

The Incan army didn't build the roads. Also, the Roman Legion already has that as an ability, so I would rather not double-dip. There is also only 1 other scout replacement, while there are 4-5 spear/sword replacements already

if you guys want to make a pitch for a pakayoc unique unit or something, I’m not going to say no, but you will have to:

• Do the research
• Sell your idea for a unique gameplay mechanic or feature for that unit, and how it relates to the actual, real world analogue

 

[Hinin]

Inca are actually a rare exception, in that we have lots of unit models for various ancient and classical footsoldiers. However, I can’t think of a more emblematic unit for the Inca than the chasqui

Are the models you're talking about from the Ethnic Diversity mod, or did you find more interesting things during your research for Incan UCs some time ago ?

The Incan army didn't build the roads. Also, the Roman Legion already has that as an ability, so I would rather not double-dip.

Well, we actually had this conversation a few years ago : if we follow your logic, then the Chasqui shouldn't be a unique military unit at all, since they weren't supposed to fight, but only to transmit messages. In the end, since we actually use this unit as a Scout replacement, giving it ways to emphasize its traditionnal role as a messenger would be quite flavorful. That said, the fact is that the Legion and the Chasqui are from very different unit class (the first being deployed en masse, the second as an auxiliary on the flanks), and that improvement-building is a core element of the Legion identity while more of a "cherry-on-top" bonus for the Chasqui.


By the way, could you give me the name of the authors for the icon and models of the two new units you've added in v.60 ? I would like to make a new streamlined excel authors namelist (including, of course, those made by the team).