3rd and 4th Unique Components for VP - Official thread

Thanks for the summary. Easy to lose track of feedback. I just moved and I am still probably weeks away from a reliable internet connection and setting up my desktop so I can push a 4UC update, or any custom civ updates. I’m happy to say that the newest version hasn’t broken anything (except the Khmer, but that will be fixed if/when Morocco is fixed)

Could someone test the induna’s XP bonus for stacked units? I have a report that it is not working as intended.

 

Here are the xp amounts after test. It seems the InDuna xp-bonus works well (+50% xp, rounded down). I also tested the xp-bonus when expending the InDuna, and there is also no problem.

Spoiler Picture :

Other things needing to be tested ?

 

Khopesh have too high of a CS at 15. The next highest Spearman UU is the Hoplite at 14, and that is one the main strengths of the Hoplite.

Great Bombards absolutely devastate Cities. They could use a nerf.

 

Minor bug, Spanish Armada has CS properly adjusting with the invincible promotion (42/46) according to a new changelog, but the promotion description in game and in wiki shows old value (+6 CS when at full health instead of +4) .

I think it's line 85 of NewComponentTexts.xml

 

Fixed in new version

Bug with the lua. Will scale to 12/14/16 in new version

You still had 2 horses for your iron chariots, so they still got 15 CS. In order to get 17CS, you need 2 horses and 2 iron. the code checks if you have at least X number of horse and iron separately in comparison to your X iron chariots. It does not simply sum those two numbers up and give you the full +4 if you have 2*(# horses + # iron).

Intended. The lamassu gives less defense but more offence. This is consistent with Assyrian military doctrine.

it already does.

I think it’s fine for now.

Perhaps instead of giving ocean movement, it could give embarked units +1 move and the ‘must end turn on coast’ promotion, so embarked units can enter deep ocean like a trireme?

I’m pretty sick of hearing about the khopesh. I’m seriously considering replacing this unit with a Mamluk Lancer replacement just so we can stop talking about it.

Compare it to the skola, not the steam mill. The steam mill also has many more, smaller, varied bonuses, so I think it’s fine

It’s fine for now, IMO. Adding a check for all adjacent tiles is a lot more processing load.

I hate unlocking multiple UCs on the same tech. How about writing? The Chasqui were messengers, after all.

at minimum, the Holkan is a faster warrior. It can gain XP faster than a normal scout as well. I don’t think boosting CS beyond making it strong enough to defend against barbs is necessary, and I definitely don’t want to bloat their early yields more than they are. If you recall, their yields had to be reduced to their current form because they were snowballing Maya too hard if you got a lucky break on ruins.

However, I might give them back the treasure hunter promotion that the base pathfinder lost last year.

Unintended bug gave them +500% vs cities instead of +300%. Fixed in next patch.

I disagree. I have fought Spain on several games and she’s fairly easy to deal with. The 46 CS on a full HP armada is only +1 from a sea beggar. The Armada’s -1 movement is also major.

Similar, but still very different mechanically, because the Zulu get the culture in every city with an Iziko.

scaling with era would be broken, because you can get 5 levels on new units easily in late game, which translates to 10 culture in every city for free, in addition to gaining XP normally.

fixed.

 

crashes on Strategic View. Took me a day to figure out the cause but this mod alone causes the crashes. Any fixes?

Here's the database log:

Spoiler :

[78626.000] columns StrategicViewType, TileType are not unique
[78626.000] While executing - 'INSERT INTO ArtDefine_StrategicView(StrategicViewType, TileType, Asset) VALUES(?,?,?)'
[78628.171] no such table: ContentPackage.LocalizedText
[78628.171] no such table: ContentPackage.LocalizedText
[78628.187] no such table: ContentPackage.LocalizedText
[78629.343] no such table: ContentPackage.LocalizedText
[78631.531] columns StrategicViewType, TileType are not unique
[78631.531] While executing - 'INSERT INTO ArtDefine_StrategicView(StrategicViewType, TileType, Asset) VALUES(?,?,?)'
[78632.453] no such table: ContentPackage.LocalizedText
[78632.453] no such table: ContentPackage.LocalizedText
[78632.453] no such table: ContentPackage.LocalizedText
[78638.421]
-- SQLite Memory Statistics --
Memory Usage:
[Cur] [Max]
Malloc: 6246512 75897184
PageCache: 6 12
LookAside: 0 0
Scratch: 0 1

Static Buffer Overflows:
[TooLarge] [NoSpace]
PageCache: 5831784 62968920
Scratch: 0 0

Largest Allocations:
Malloc: 262144
PageCache: 1172
Scratch: 6640

Prepared Statements:
Current: 6
------------------------------
[78638.953]
-- SQLite Memory Statistics --
Memory Usage:
[Cur] [Max]
Malloc: 6247688 75897184
PageCache: 6 12
LookAside: 0 0
Scratch: 0 1

Static Buffer Overflows:
[TooLarge] [NoSpace]
PageCache: 5832960 62968920
Scratch: 0 0

Largest Allocations:
Malloc: 262144
PageCache: 1172
Scratch: 6640

Prepared Statements:
Current: 6
------------------------------

Edit: More troubleshooting. Finally determined the cause of strategic view crashes. This mod is incompatible with Late Game Unit Pack. For some reason both of them active somehow ruins strategic view

 

Nice. I'll try to ckeck it out as soon as possible.

You're the chief, chief.

I also think it's not a pressing matter, but talking about it is still useful I think. Do you have others ideas on how to replace the carnyx promotion ?

Good idea. It's at least more logical with the general direction of the Incan tech tree.

It's an interesting proposition. You would still have to wait renaissance for long ocean travel, but finding small passages between landmasses becomes possible, and embarked units with 4 movement become able to follow the Langskib more easily. Plus, it's thematic with the way Northmen traveled from island to island during the 9/10th century. The fact that the bonus applies only to stacked units makes it still something that only human players can make use of, but I understand your concern about the processing load.

What do you have in mind for the Mamluk Lancer ?

Well, at least pls change the historical part a bit. As I said, there is an actual misinformation in it.

I think it's a good compromise.

I personally think that the Sea Beggar is an overpowered unit with too much bonus (a lot of bonus CP, two very powerful promotions, unlocked earlier, no downside), but that's only my opinion.

The fact that the bonus scales with cities and not eras, plus the number of promotion you obtain on each unit, makes the bonus powerful in itself (and the GG bonus I proposed far too powerful). Sorry for talking before thinking.

What about the production cost reduction ? I think the Zulus need at least a little buff right now, and there don't seem to be anything coming for them in the near future in base VP.

 

Roman unique resource - Figs have now different building that upgrades their yield (together with coffee, tea, tobacco and bananas). Grocer or Coffee House used to give them big bonuses. Quite a while ago these bonuses were moved to Customs House/Hanse/Pogost stage 1. Because of this with 3rd and 4th component enabled, neither Grocer nor Customs House improves Figs yields. Customs House gives extra gold/production only to tea, coffee, tobacco and bananas.
I really wanted to play Rome (Latifundiums are amazing) so i fixed this. To do this, i went to "Figs.sql" file found in "\(over) More Unique Components for VP (v 59)\Rome\Figs\Figs.sql" and changed:

INSERT INTO Building_ResourceYieldChanges
(BuildingType, ResourceType, YieldType, Yield)
VALUES ('BUILDING_COFFEE_HOUSE', 'RESOURCE_ROME_FIGS', 'YIELD_PRODUCTION', 1),
('BUILDING_COFFEE_HOUSE', 'RESOURCE_ROME_FIGS', 'YIELD_GOLD', 1),
('BUILDING_COFFEE_HOUSE', 'RESOURCE_ROME_FIGS', 'YIELD_FOOD', 1),
('BUILDING_GROCER', 'RESOURCE_ROME_FIGS', 'YIELD_PRODUCTION', 1),
('BUILDING_GROCER', 'RESOURCE_ROME_FIGS', 'YIELD_GOLD', 1),
('BUILDING_GROCER', 'RESOURCE_ROME_FIGS', 'YIELD_FOOD', 1);

into this:

INSERT INTO Building_ResourceYieldChanges
(BuildingType, ResourceType, YieldType, Yield)
VALUES ('BUILDING_HANSE', 'RESOURCE_ROME_FIGS', 'YIELD_PRODUCTION', 1),
('BUILDING_HANSE', 'RESOURCE_ROME_FIGS', 'YIELD_GOLD', 1),
('BUILDING_HANSE', 'RESOURCE_ROME_FIGS', 'YIELD_FOOD', 1),
('BUILDING_MINT', 'RESOURCE_ROME_FIGS', 'YIELD_PRODUCTION', 1),
('BUILDING_MINT', 'RESOURCE_ROME_FIGS', 'YIELD_GOLD', 1),
('BUILDING_MINT', 'RESOURCE_ROME_FIGS', 'YIELD_FOOD', 1),
('BUILDING_RUSSIA_POGOST_1', 'RESOURCE_ROME_FIGS', 'YIELD_PRODUCTION', 1),
('BUILDING_RUSSIA_POGOST_1', 'RESOURCE_ROME_FIGS', 'YIELD_GOLD', 1),
('BUILDING_RUSSIA_POGOST_1', 'RESOURCE_ROME_FIGS', 'YIELD_FOOD', 1);

"Mint" in game files is Customs House in game BTW.
Also Descriptions of Coffee House, Grocer, Mint, Hanse and Pogost are obsolete so that would need changing in the next release too.

I really appreciate your mod. It makes civilizations so much more interesting and complex. It impoves Vox Populi a lot, even though Vox Populi alone is outstanding already.
Should i post these kinds of bugs here or on GitHub? It seems to be dead for over a year so i figured i'd put it here.

 

Here is fine. Thanks for pointing that out. I'm wondering if I wouldn't rather that the bonuses stay on the grocer though? Moving the bonus 1 tech level sooner is a buff to Rome. What do other people think?

 

It feels more like a grocer resource rather than a trade resource, but I don't know.

 

Yeah, it fits Grocer more. Those figs are good enough already. If you spawn on plains with a bunch of wheat, plantation luxuries, and pick a plantation pantheon it's great.

 

Mamluk
350
Unlocked at Metallurgy
38
4Moves
-50% foreign religious pressure when garrisoned in a city (same as inquisitor)
Vur Ha! - +25% vs unit with more than 50 hp. +1Movement if the unit has attacked This turn (ie. Mamluk can always retreat after attacking).

 

So you put the promotion that everybody asked to put on the Khopesh, on the Mamluk.

Anyway acting like defensive inquisitors is very odd. Since Mamluks were recruited slave troops, that were mostly Christian. They officially converted to Islam, but they often maintained relations with their home region, even sending funds back for churches.

And Mamluk Egypt wasn't really fending off religious pressure.

Also, does Egypt really need an inquisitor? AI Egypt often misses getting a religion,.

I really think the recruitment mechanic would be a better idea for a feature.

Also, I still think it would be better as a Knight.

 

Depends on what Mamluks you’re talking about. Many of them were Turkic Muslims, especially the most famous ones at the height of Mamluk power. Circassian, Georgian and Coptic Mamluks, nominally all Muslim as well, but converted from Christianity, came later.

They were during the crusades under Saladin and the Ayyubid caliphate. The Ayyubids were notable for their vigorous promotion of Sunni Islam, as compared to the more lax fatimids. The later Mamluk sultanate also conquered Christian Makuria, present day Sudan, which is majority Muslim today.

The unit assets and design are pulled from JFD’s Ayyubid civ.”, and I would like to acknowledge/preserve some of that design if possible.

It doesn’t, though any civ getting a pressure-blocking unit in renaissance is only an incidental benefit, even a religious civ. It’s not a huge deal. However, Egypt does have a modest faith from the burial tomb.

The Qizilbash has a recruitment mechanic (faith purchase), and I want to ensure there isn’t too much overlap. I want to make sure the Mamluk is at least a little different from other lancer replacements (Hakkapelliitta, Winged Hussar, Sipahi, Qizilbash, Prussian death’s head hussar, and the Timurid Tumen)

not including Egypt or custom civs, there are:
3 lancer replacements (Qizilbash, hakkapeliitta, winged hussar)
4 spearman replacements (immortal, Pictish warrior, hoplite, Sabum kibitum)
5 knight replacements (cataphract, conquistador, naresuan’s elephant, black tug, mandekalu cavalry)
So, all things equal, adding a Mamluk lancer spreads things out better.

the Mamluks really became a major power with the Ayyubids in 1171, and the Mamluk sultanate lasted until 1517. That’s a wide swathe that gives a lot of leeway. The battle of Ayn Jalut, arguably the most famous Mamluk victory, was in 1260, and stressed light cavalry tactics, more representative of the lancer than knightly heavy cavalry. I would also prefer to stretch Egypt later, since they are otherwise stacked into the first 3 eras.

 

No, I meant recruitment as in my prior suggestion

Well, one of those was you moving the mandekalu cavalry from its spot as a horseman.

And if anything, if we are using time, then Naresuan's elephant should be moved to a lancer, since their namesake ruled from 1590 to 1605. Much later than the Ottoman conquest of the Mamluks. Not that actually ended them, since the Ottomans just left them around Egypt until the French came.

And Mongol tactics were more lancer based. But I wouldn't move them.

 

You’d have to flesh that out for me a little. I can’t picture how that would work. Also, it would pull Egypt in a new direction; they aren’t a diplo civ, so it would be hard to justify.

I generally like sukritact’s idea of renaming the unit to chang suek. As you say, it’s a pretty anachronistic knight replacement if you tie it specifically to naresuan, but it’s not like Thai people weren’t using war elephants before 1600.

speaking of anachronism.
i made that change for both balance and Historical reasons:

• Mandekalu got special mention in the “things that are busted” thread recently. Unique horsemen with no penalty that early is very difficult to balance.
• They were knights in vanilla, so they only got moved there because G removed the companion cavalry. The 4UC mod adds an Assyrian horseman, and I re-added the companion cavalry with the Greece/macedon split.
  
• The Songhai were an empire from 1464 to 1591, but both of their base UCs appear in the ancient era, and I think that’s just wrong.

 

3rd and 4th Unique broadens the play style of a lot of civs. Giving Egypt a little diplo, is nowhere as big a change, as say the Iroquis UW that adds a major city state-focused push. Of course, Iroquis should have had city-state stuff.

And it doesn't have to be influence. It could be a lump sum of a random nearby city-states normal yields, like if Egypt had tributed the city-state at full power (but without the influence loss). With a cooldown. Or unique random promotions depending on the terrain or type of the random city-state.


Anyway, currently playing a game of Indonesia.

The Kampong is really good. Went God of the Sea because of my coastal start with a crab monopoly and a lot of fish and other sea tiles. The big issue, of course, is getting tiles, since the normal city border expansion is loath to expand to blank coast tiles. I've had to buy a lot, and they are really expensive in terms of gold, even with going Progress and selling resources like crazy to the AI. But all of these combined, make my cities lead in terms of average food and production, even while expanding a lot. Very solid.

I'm also trying to take Rome, which borders a massive lake. I want to take it, and fill it with Kampongs. Haven't had much luck.

However the Prau I don't particularly like. It feels like a worse Quinquereme, except also more expensive in terms of production. Since they are both early replacements, most other civs don't have any boats in the water. Making city attacks much more useful as a mechanic. In boat vs boat duels, the no ZOC and extra movement is somewhat helpful, and the flank attack is useful. Heavy Assault is still decent for ship to ship combat. Haven't seen a Prau vs Quinquereme fight to compare.

But the clincher is Reconnaissance. It is very easy as Carthage to have a bunch of level 2-4 boats, before launching the first offensive war against another civ. But the Prau gets nothing at all, despite being a scouting boat. Also in terms of scouting, it really didn't take off until I grabbed the Great Lighthouse. A lot of the time I couldn't quite see over the rifts, without having my scout tag along to stand on islands, but once I got the wonder, it got much better.

I launched a naval offensive against Rome with 4 Prau and 2 Penecosters, and I ended up finding the Penteconter far more useful. I ended up only taking one of Rome coastal cities, and lost a Prau because it got caught in the city when it got retaken the next turn.

If I had launched the same fight, with just 4 Quinquereme I would have flattened Rome.

I know the Quinquereme is a very strong UU. It just feels like the Prau either needs something non-combat related as a bonus or be a bit better refined in terms of combat and/or scouting. Or just straight-up having Reconnaissance

 

I also hate the unit model, and a proper outrigger boat model isn't forthcoming.

I have been considering replacing the prau with a Djong (unique galleass), and changing the Xiafan Guanjun to the red-sailed model

 

You could add an extra effect to a city-state tribute (minor tribute only; there is no event for major tribute), but that's very hard to make it feel like it's attached to the Mamluk itself, and not to the empire as a whole. CS intimidation doesn't upweight specific units, for instance.

the only things I could think of would be something like these:

• Half of the Gold from CS tribute is added as progress towards a training a new Mamluk in the Capital (if you have the required tech)
• All Mamluks gain XP whenever you successfully demand Gold tribute from a City State (could be abused for infinite XP with how tribute works now)
• All Mamluks Heal whenever you successfully demand Gold tribute from a City State (once again, could be abused for infinite heal because of the low tribute requirements)

Here is what I'm thinking for for the Indonesian Djong:
Unlocked at Guilds
200 (+25 from Galleass)
15, 24 (+1/+1)
2 Range (up from 1)
4 moves (up from 3)
Cannot move After Attack
Can Enter Deep ocean
Cetbang - (unique promotion, dunno)

So, effectively Indonesia gets a galleass replacement that moves and fires like an early pre-frigate, and so they must be countered with Caravels.
I would like for them to have something to carry forward, and I think the fact that the Indonesians were mass-producing and using breech-loading cannons 200 years before the Europeans were is just so cool that it deserves a mention somewhere. Maybe I keep their RCS as the base 23 and give them logistics instead?

 

One idea. The ships could carry a lot of people. Maybe it grants a temporary Marine bonus to any embarked units nearby. It would help for island-hopping campaigns to boost the supporting troops. Maybe not the War Canoe and Amphibious promotions, to not step on the Songhai toes.

Or if you want the promotion to actually be Cetbang, maybe instead of firing in a turn, the ship can do small damage to all units in its radius. Lots of swivel cannons aimed at individual targets, instead of all focused on one.