3rd and 4th Unique Components for VP - Official thread 87

[adan_eslavo]

I looked at your changes.

• What you did for fe Alticur or Barbican was just reverting it to old state, right? I placed info about what is the building or what it replaces or whose it it in the beginning of each ucs. You cut it of.
• You also cut merchant specs info from agora.
• I also added word "unique" to every ucs. You deleted some.
• I cut "+" mark from abilities where you get some amount of yield. + means like you would add to city yields per turn such amount.
• Kabuki lost info about GW slot.

 

[pineappledan]

Nilometer has pop requirement?

By population scaler, I was referring to the 2 per 5 which is on both the nilometer and the TO, but the description of that part was removed. I know that technically the EUI picks this up, but it's hard to decipher just by the EUI, VP buildings clarify the scalers in the help text

What you did for fe Alticur or Barbican was just reverting it to old state, right? I placed info about what is the building or what it replaces or whose it it in the beginning of each ucs. You cut it of.

Most unique buildings do not state what they replace. You can check existing examples in VP. If you are interested in shortening the text then that is the most obvious thing to go. That information is always picked up in the strategy section, at least.

You also cut merchant specs info from agora.

Merchant slots are always picked up by EUI. Unless the building gives more specialists than the building it replaces then there is really no need to mention it. The base market does not list its own merchant specialist in the help text. I also removed it from intihuatana.

I also added word "unique" to every ucs. You deleted some.

In the interest of saving space and flow, yes. Most VP unique components do not state that they are unique X. It is more prevalent on unique units

I cut "+" mark from abilities where you get some amount of yield. + means like you would add to city yields per turn such amount.

I'll check again, but I believe the + is consistent with other VP text for most instant boosts. You've got me second-guessing that. It's on the to-do list for tomorrow... too sleepy

Kabuki lost info about GW slot.

see above

 

[adan_eslavo]

• I mixed adjectives like Aztecan or Roman to avoid phrase "may only be built" to make text shorter and add some diversity.
• You meant those scalers. Ok. I agree I cut the off. We should bring them on instead of some base yields info.

 

[adan_eslavo]

• So maybe cut the begging info totally from all ucs? Leave only info who can build it? Its silly that some have such overbuilt info and some not. The biggest problem with space had wonders. Rest was ok. We need to rethink if we need that prologue at all.
• Once you said that merchant info is in EUI and theres no need to mention it. And the other way you say about pop scaling or building requirements that are also listed in EUI but you want them placed in the help. Theres some incosistency. Why do even look at market. Cannot we do it to be better than market? Guys from vp do not care much about text. I suppose. Text are needed so they add them and that all. Without polishing. Especially if specialist EUI is also very unclear to decipher. For me. I would prefer to read it in help.
• If there are "+" then ok. Im not sure about it but seemed more natural for me.
• What is used in vp: per 5 citizens or per 5 population. We should choose one pattern in all ucs.
• I treat it similar to promotions. We could do it better and we did. Vp desc can always be changed. Do you update ours if some guy change one or two things in vp descs? Of course not. If he decide to add merchant info to market you will not even know it was changed. Thats the truth. We should make them like it were totally new buildings added to vp.
• Imo every info should be listed in help. No matter if it is GW, merchant slot, yields per pop or pop requirement. We can resign from prologue and put them there. Packed, sorted but complete. If you mention all things and throw merchant away then I as a player must look somewhere else and check what was missed in help. Help is first thing to look. Later you compare data listed above. Help helps you decide. Civilopedia is for checking someone elses building, and if help text is as detailed as possible no player will miss valuable for him info in civilopedia.
• Strategy should be as short as possible and mention only about tactics, possible uses etc without explaining abilities in detail. Instead as I saw in pitz (ball) court whole list if promos was put there. Too long.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

Hacienda's really fun to use. I especially like how each might have a different yield flavour than the other and their power ranges from worse than a farm to awesome. Shame natural wonders don't influence it, +2 Faith from adjacency with them would rock and add another layer of tactic (totally unrelated to the fact I started to two wonders this game), but the Hacienda's great as is

If we're talking balance, I don't think giving Carthage even more of an early bonus UB is all that good. From what I think is three times I've seen Carthage, (I know it's a tiny sample), two times she's dominated her entire continent, the other time she started next to me and that didn't occur.
Latifundium, on the other hand, seems underwhelming to me. You have to significantly slow down the development of other tiles to get something that really doesn't compare to most other UIs. Even if it was built at a regular time (so half of what it takes), it'd not be very good. It's restrictive, takes a pretty long time, doesn't give enough to compensate. As it is, a regular plantation tile can easily be stronger than what you replace it with, though it does give figs with plantation that are not too bad. After Imperialism they'll turn good and worthwhile, and Rome has no reason not to go Imperialism, but I think Latifundium needs +yield on some early tech or a building, maybe together with a 20/25% faster build time.

 

[pineappledan]

Yeah I think we overnerfed the Latifundia. It's at 20 turns build now right? maybe reduce it to 12? That's still 50% longer than a plantation, but right now it's almost 200% longer

 

[pineappledan]

So maybe cut the begging info totally from all ucs?

Sure. May as well.

Once you said that merchant info is in EUI and theres no need to mention it. And the other way you say about pop scaling or building requirements that are also listed in EUI but you want them placed in the help. Theres some incosistency.

No I don't really think that's inconsistent, I said that scalers are re-stated because it can be confusing otherwise.
The resource scalers in VP look like this:
+2 +1+20%
It's on the same line as the base yields and it can look confusing. This is why the help text states "+1 production for every 5 citizens". It re-states information that is already there, technically, but the way EUI presents that information is hard to understand, especially if coming from vanilla where those features don't exist.

Specialists on the other hand are very straightforward. They either exist on the building and you have 1 or 2 of them. That's it. There are also far more buildings with specialists than there are buildings with scalers, and almost every building has base yields. Many times the help section re-states information for buildings which give non-standard effects. ie. walls. The EUI covers everything that a wall does, but because so few buildings provide defense, it is re-stated in the help text.

Re building costs scaling with cities and population, that is not described by EUI. EUI only states what the current cost and population requirement is, it does not state that if you settle a new city both those numbers will go up. That is important information to have or else a player could settle a city, slowing the production of an important wonder. Players need to be able to make smart, informed decisions.

What is used in vp: per 5 citizens or per 5 population. We should choose one pattern in all ucs

"+1 production for every 5 citizens" is standard

Strategy should be as short as possible and mention only about tactics, possible uses etc without explaining abilities in detail. Instead as I saw in pitz (ball) court whole list if promos was put there. Too long.

As long as the information is somewhere for what each of the K'at'un Ahaw promotions are.

 

[adan_eslavo]

• Are those info (merchants, gw etc) that you dont want to mention visible in civilopedia on the keft panel? If not, not mentioning them in help will confuse player.
• Ok I agree that cost scaler is important then. But put it at the end of help. Right before owner.
• Do you plan to make some changes in file? Im on my way home and dont wanna overwrite your work.
• Confusing or not confusing we shouldnt neglect any info. Everything is important. If you put A and B then put also C. Argument: is so clear does not convience me. Building requirement is also clear.

 

[pineappledan]

Merchant slots are available in the left panel, yes. Other unique replacements in VP don't mention them either (bazaar, skola, etc.). All unique units say "Only X may build it" as the second sentence. no buildings say it

Unit Template:

• brief intro "This is a really cool unit"
• "only X may build it"
• It does X and Y

Buildings are only concerned with what they do. They never state what they replace (It's picked up by EUI, what tech they unlock (EUI), merchant slots (EUI), base, static yields (EUI)
I'll do some work on it today

 

[adan_eslavo]

• And what about multi gw slots with theming?
• Trapping on buffalo pound should stay. Tech is totally in other branch.
• We are talking and talking but the most thing I want is consistence and getting rid of the mess. Seriously.
• Is the cool unit part necessary? Its irrelevant. If it is comparing to standard unit then ok.
• Why buildings havo no owner info? It should be.
• Unit names should start with capital, so: Catapult, Scout, Tank etc. I saw you changed them to small letters.

 

[pineappledan]

Indeed, I am trying to make things consistent. But I am trying to make EVERYTHING consistent, not just within 4UC, but with VP as well. If you want to try to convince G to alter phrasing on his descriptions be my guest. He turned into a level 5 a-hole when I recommended a change of 1 word to the Polish UA. Have at 'er.

This is the text from the Smithsonian as an example:
"Contains 3 slots for Great Works of Art or Artifacts

+5 Science and +5 Culture if themed"

 

[adan_eslavo]

WRT Strategy - example:
"'Unique naval unit of the Byzantines. Replaces the Penteconter. Deals an additional 10 damage to units it has attacked at the beginning of the enemy''s turn, stacking up to 3 times. Rush to logistics and reign fire down on your enemies'"

Why not smth like:
"Allows early naval supremacy. Works better in groups (because of stacked dmg). Rush to logistics and reign fire down on your enemies." - it describes strategy, tactics.



So slots are mentioned or only in multi GW?
G is tough guy I know.

 

[adan_eslavo]

I just looked at Berber Cavalry, Kasbah and Acropolis or Panzer to see how many incosistencies (letters, spaces, order) are between only VP UCs. There's no unified style what should be written with capital letter. What is your opinion on that? Should those rules be the same for help and strategy?

 

[pineappledan]

I'm trying to stay consistent. There are inconsistencies in VP, so I have been focusing on a sort of law of averages. If MOST UCs I see have it one way then I will do that.

For instance, MOST UUs say "Only X may build it", but there are a couple that say "Only X can build it", and even "May only be built by X"

 

[pineappledan]

So slots are mentioned or only in multi GW?

No they are mentioned on all building that have them. Theodora's basilica, for instance states the same thing

"Allows early naval supremacy. Works better in groups (because of stacked dmg). Rush to logistics and reign fire down on your enemies." - it describes strategy, tactics.

Sure, I can make that change

 

[adan_eslavo]

My thoughts:

• reordered slightly Armada,
• Baan Chang: Ivory info
• Bastu: spaces to clear view. Slight tematic reorder.

 

[pineappledan]

There are text entries in both the SQL and the XML for dromon. Why is that? should I just delete the ones in the gametext.xml?

 

[adan_eslavo]

Maybe one is Dromon and one is Penteconter? They have similar names.

Reordered Andels.

 

[adan_eslavo]

Ok, I think I will be reading your changes and adding some thoughts or small fixes. I did such for your last 6 (Black Tug and Agora was OK) UCs. Hope it suits you. This will prevent overwriting our work.

I'm done for today. Not so much time to write something. Tomorrow I will continue this work.

 

[pineappledan]

All help sections (And I mean literally every single one) has now been edited. The only ones I am not sure about are the Laguna and Tersane