[Extension] 3rd and 4th Unique Components for VP - Official thread 88.10

[Zarrk]

Currently playing an Aztec game, evolving even your starting Jaguar into an Eagle feels such a drag, can't see how in the early game (before rushing Iron Working) you can get 10 kills with the same unit unless you play epic/marathon and farming with raging barbarians. I'm gonna drop the requirements by half for personnal use. (flying ace status is awarded with 5 downed planes so I find it fitting.)

Is there any reason that workers generated by "Captives of War" are not given the "Prisoner of War" debuff ?


Thanks for the mod, and congrats for the Spain rework, Isabella really feels in a good spot now.

 

[pineappledan]

Is there any reason that workers generated by "Captives of War" are not given the "Prisoner of War" debuff ?

Because having a unique ability that gives you way too many workers -- and also gimps them -- would feel pretty bad.
However, maybe there's an argument to be made they could have the temporary prisoners of war, and then a permanent +25% work rate promotion that short-term mitigates and long-term pays off for Eagle-converted workers.

evolving even your starting Jaguar into an Eagle feels such a drag

Yeah, it's intentionally hard, bordering on impossible with normal settings by design. Getting a Boosted, unique swordsmen in ancient would be catastrophically unbalanced unless you were steamrolling people regardless.
Fun fact though: Capturing cities counts as a "kill".

I'm gonna drop the requirements by half for personal use.

Just want to say, thanks for taking the time/energy to change the game for yourself, rather than demanding things be changed for everyone to conform to your personal tastes. It actually does mean a lot to me when people are willing to do the work.

 

[SuperNoobCamper]

Currently playing an Aztec game, evolving even your starting Jaguar into an Eagle feels such a drag, can't see how in the early game (before rushing Iron Working) you can get 10 kills with the same unit unless you play epic/marathon and farming with raging barbarians. I'm gonna drop the requirements by half for personnal use. (flying ace status is awarded with 5 downed planes so I find it fitting.)

Is there any reason that workers generated by "Captives of War" are not given the "Prisoner of War" debuff ?


Thanks for the mod, and congrats for the Spain rework, Isabella really feels in a good spot now.

I played the Aztecs a couple of times on Emperor, it's doable on Epic speed to get one or even two if you focus all of your kills to be by a single unit, i don't think it's doable on standard speed or but he time you get one to upgrade it does not matter .... 5 is really easy on the contrary so i think something in between would be balanced.

 

[Legen]

I'm playing as Japan with this mod, testing if the Kabuki allows for a solid Tradition/Artistry play. I'm seeing an issue with the musician unique guild, it seems to proc the instant tourism only once, regardless of how many Gagaku guilds you have.

Checking on the tourism screen, I have 15203 tourism with the Celts (0% modifier) the turn before my musician is born. The next turn, I have 15768 tourism with them, only 565 more. I'm sure the Gagaku trigger isn't taking into account how many guilds are there in the empire (I had 3), even without accounting the tourism per turn and the historic event from musician birth.

Two other things about the unique guilds:

• The notification when a great cultural person is born doesn't tell how many yields were generated, unlike the Kabuki's culture from internal trade routes notification. It doesn't appear on the in-game logs either.
• The OP says the Gagaku's instant tourism scales with era. I double checked during my game, it doesn't.

I'm still in the middle of the game, at Industrial Era, and trying to deal with a runaway on the other continent, so it's early to say of the UB's overall power. The science from artist birth has been the most notable during Renaissance, though, with how much tourism and GAP Artistry provides. I'm also enjoying the Kabuki's culture from internal trade routes, the amount seems to be in the right spot.

 

[pineappledan]

I'm playing as Japan with this mod, testing if the Kabuki allows for a solid Tradition/Artistry play. I'm seeing an issue with the musician unique guild, it seems to proc the instant tourism only once, regardless of how many Gagaku guilds you have.

Checking on the tourism screen, I have 15203 tourism with the Celts (0% modifier) the turn before my musician is born. The next turn, I have 15768 tourism with them, only 565 more. I'm sure the Gagaku trigger isn't taking into account how many guilds are there in the empire (I had 3), even without accounting the tourism per turn and the historic event from musician birth.

Two other things about the unique guilds:

• The notification when a great cultural person is born doesn't tell how many yields were generated, unlike the Kabuki's culture from internal trade routes notification. It doesn't appear on the in-game logs either.
• The OP says the Gagaku's instant tourism scales with era. I double checked during my game, it doesn't.

I'm still in the middle of the game, at Industrial Era, and trying to deal with a runaway on the other continent, so it's early to say of the UB's overall power. The science from artist birth has been the most notable during Renaissance, though, with how much tourism and GAP Artistry provides. I'm also enjoying the Kabuki's culture from internal trade routes, the amount seems to be in the right spot.

I'm not liking the inconsistency and the issues inherent to giving Tourism as an instant yield. I'm contemplating just giving 4% // on Writer/Artist/Musician only. Or maybe only 3%. I'm interested to hear how the remainder of your game goes, because I have had a sense for a while that Japan's unique guilds should be nerfed anyways.

 

[Legen]

I stopped the game because I was having CTD at a certain turn, but I plan to try again later.

My impression so far is that the addition of procs is making the guilds unbalanced, as Japan's gold and science per turn tends to be much smaller than the culture and GAP + tourism ones for a given turn. Great Artists in particular scale to high GAP values very early, making their science proc compare favorably to great scientist bulbing for the turn. Great Writers born in the middle of a golden age can also give gold as if you bulbed a great merchant. Meanwhile, the procs are quite small for what you'd expect from a partial bulbing.

My original suggestion involved only as a way to boost the cultural game, as expected from unique guilds. The addition of procs is making Japan suddenly pull ahead in science and infrastructure after Renaissance out of nowhere, while keeping the cultural boost low.

I think the guilds are better focusing the original yields of the cultural great people, that should give them a more predictable scaling. I know you had issues in implementing the tourism as the original design, we could think of some alternative to it, like a permanent happiness in the Capital as part of the musician bulbing.

 

[pineappledan]

My original suggestion involved only as a way to boost the cultural game, as expected from unique guilds. The addition of procs is making Japan suddenly pull ahead in science and infrastructure after Renaissance out of nowhere, while keeping the cultural boost low.

I think the guilds are better focusing the original yields of the cultural great people, that should give them a more predictable scaling. I know you had issues in implementing the tourism as the original design, we could think of some alternative to it, like a permanent happiness in the Capital as part of the musician bulbing.

Could also just nerf the amounts to 1-2%
There are two problems with yields:

• They are already what those Writers/Artists/Musicians give anyways, so it's less interesting
• The problem is that the way tourism works is you have to loop through all other major civ players and manipulate your influence levels with them. You can't just give 1 player some yields, so it's complicated.

Happiness would end up being 3 because 3 guilds exist. So that would easily become a serious problem

 

[Legen]

• They are already what those Writers/Artists/Musicians give anyways, so it's less interesting

• The problem is that the way tourism works is you have to loop through all other major civ players and manipulate your influence levels with them. You can't just give 1 player some yields, so it's complicated.

I see the part of being less interesting, and the tourism one is something I hadn't kept in mind when I originally proposed; unlike culture and golden age, the musician bulbing involves a targeted player, instead of Japan itself. However, I do think the unique guilds should have a strong contribution for a CV, and the nerfs to the percentages are toning that down to keep the gold and science yields in check.

For now, I think this could address these points:

• Limit the musician proc to only give faith, but at a larger percentage, as if it were giving two yields;
• Treat the two yields of great writers and artists as either primary ( ) or secondary ( ), and give those yields different percentages based on whether it is primary or secondary.

Here's an example of how it may look:

• Gagaku Guild: Whenever a Great Musician is born, (X+Y)% of the potential Tourism from a Concert Tour is instantly granted as Faith.
• Monogatari Guild: Whenever a Great Writer is born, X% of the potential Culture from Writing a Political Treatise is instantly granted as Culture and Y% as Gold.
• Ukiyo-e Guild: Whenever a Great Artist is born, X% of the potential Golden Age Points from Starting a Golden Age is instantly granted as Golden Age Points and Y% as Science.

This should allow for a better tuning of the yields, so that the unique guilds can still contribute towards a CV ( ) while still retaining an interesting variation ( ) for Japan's usual gameplan.

The faith part is for now the best I can think of for the musicians. Maybe the Gagaku guilds could give something extra outside the yield proc, like a +1 Happiness or some base Tourism on the Gagaku guilds themselves; Faith is on the weak side at this point of the game, making the musician proc the weaker and least interesting of the three.

 

[Heinz_Guderian]

Maybe not the right place to ask but since mandekalu is moved to knights in this mod I figure it's safest to ask here: When I upgrade mandekalu to Lancers, do they get the malus to city attack? and do they keep their raider promotion?

 

[pineappledan]

1) No
2) Yes

 

[Heinz_Guderian]

1) No
2) Yes

Awesome. Man the power spike when you hit chivalry is crazy with your version of Songhai. Playing on deity and I have never had such an easy time conquering someone as I did with America as soon as I hit that tech

 

[Heinz_Guderian]

@pineappledan are the automatically constructed yassa courts supposed to cost 3 maintenance? It says somewhere in the description that they are free, but does that mean just built automatically? 3 gold in every city is quite a hefty sum decently early on

 

[pineappledan]

Yes, they are build for free, but they are not free.

go tribute someone!

 

[Hinin]

@pineappledan are the automatically constructed yassa courts supposed to cost 3 maintenance? It says somewhere in the description that they are free, but does that mean just built automatically? 3 gold in every city is quite a hefty sum decently early on

Those horse bois are difficult to pacify, so hey the maintenance when obtaining all those bonuses for no production cost has to be felt.
As a Guderian, you must know the price of the 'I am Blitz' playstyle.

Spoiler Speed demon music (obscure reference) :

 

[Heinz_Guderian]

Those horse bois are difficult to pacify, so hey the maintenance when obtaining all those bonuses for no production cost has to be felt.
As a Guderian, you must know the price of the 'I am Blitz' playstyle.

Spoiler Speed demon music (obscure reference) :

Haha I love that song! Yea maybe. I think I would have prefered a slightly worse building for 2gpt but yeah. I might change that if I figure out how

 

[Heinz_Guderian]

any pointers to where I can tweak the yassa court numbers? I opened both the lua and the text document but couldnt figure out how to change it

 

[pineappledan]

There is a place in the yassa sql that says :
GoldMaintenance,
GoldMaintenance,

you need to change that to:
GoldMaintenance,
X,
Where X is whatever value you want gold maintenance to be

 

[Vhozite]

I’m getting missing names and descriptions for everything added by 4UC. I assume it just can’t find the file with the right text because the units work fine and the text files are present in the mod files.

TXT_KEY etc for everything added by the mod.

 

[SuperNoobCamper]

The university of Coimbra/The citt it's built in does not gain production after building feitorias in CS territory with Naus.

 

[Hinin]

Finished Immortal Egypt T384 CV (though easily could have been an earlier science victory), standard speed, communitu79, 4UC

By the way @SpankmyMetroid, what do you think of the additionnal UCs for Egypt ?