A friendly chat about Poltical Correctness

[Taliesin]

Why isnt it a political philosophy? If ones concern is primarily focused on not being offensive to former victims of colonialism, how can it possibly be independent of politics?

Because a movement whose sole principle is to change language to remove the possibility of offence to minorities and disadvantaged groups does not seek to influence how people organise themselves, or how government is run, or how funds are allocated, or on what basis a state conducts itself. It may have a secondary influence on political discussion, and perhaps a tertiary effect on actual policy, but that hardly counts as a political theory, because we expect a political theory to say something about politics. It's more like a quasi-ethicised theory of semiotics.

What you were proposing for PCness is that it is a way of looking at the world that fundamentally colours many people's view of the duties of government, of the appropriate means of economic distribution, of cultural practices, and of international state action.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Because a movement whose sole principle is to change language to remove the possibility of offence to minorities and disadvantaged groups does not seek to influence how people organise themselves, or how government is run, or how funds are allocated, or on what basis a state conducts itself. It may have a secondary influence on political discussion, and perhaps a tertiary effect on actual policy, but that hardly counts as a political theory, because we expect a political theory to say something about politics. It's more like a quasi-ethicised theory of semiotics.

Changing language is a strategy, its not the 'sole principle' of the political correctness movement. Its sole principle is to right historic wrongs commited by the West against non white people across the globe. An example of politcal correctness that has nothing to do with language, and everything to do with government, and politics: affirmative action.

What you were proposing for PCness is that it is a way of looking at the world that fundamentally colours many people's view of the duties of government, of the appropriate means of economic distribution, of cultural practices, and of international state action.

Thats what Im still proposing

 

[Taliesin]

Now we're getting somewhere! I think you'll have to adduce more principles than that to cover some of the things I've seen you call PC, but we finally have a concrete definition to work with.

And, conveniently, I have to withdraw myself temporarily in order to do some real work now, but I will return here when I can, probably tonight.

 

[CartesianFart]

To really know what pc is,is to go to a good university in USA and study Business Administration.Why would i say that?Well for starters,lets just say who really determine the culture of the workplace?The Ceo's?The President?Lawmakers?

In any public and private sectors,there is always a culture that different than others.For example:
Black women and men must be habitually adressed as African American,not black or darkskinned or whatever.

My question is foundational.
Laws and institution determined society[unless you are the originator of such pc policy,then your entitled as the big cheese that invented it and with the help of the people in the lower heirarchy to regulate and maintain it]and society act accordance toward it.Either that or risk being ostracised or being fired for unfriendliness.Which is more like acting against the norm of it.

Of course the only people that can give us the wisdom of their knowledge,is the elite that make such policies[the practitionaire],and i am safe to say we are all worker bees in here.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Now we're getting somewhere! I think you'll have to adduce more principles than that to cover some of the things I've seen you call PC, but we finally have a concrete definition to work with.

So then all you wanted were specific examples of the PC movement influencing governments? Well then first and foremost: the UN. Its the Imperial Palace of the PC Empire Second, how about the common belief that Western nations have to provide never ending, ever increasing amounts of aid to their 'former' colonies?

And, conveniently, I have to withdraw myself temporarily in order to do some real work now, but I will return here when I can, probably tonight.

Ive heard of work. Sounds awful

Cartesian, yes universities in the US act like laboratories for the PC movement. My understanding is that theres practically a PC thought police on many campuses. In the workplace also, publicly questioning PC dogma is the kiss of death.

 

[Ayatollah So]

To me it [postmodernism] seems like the philosophical equivelant of WMD.

Pretty much, yeah

@ CartFart: I don't think Thomas Kuhn really belongs on the postmodern list. Despite how much many postmodernists would like to claim him. But then, if the postmodernists are anywhere close to right it's not really up to Kuhn to say what he meant, or which side he is on

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Pretty much, yeah

@ CartFart: I don't think Thomas Kuhn really belongs on the postmodern list. Despite how much many postmodernists would like to claim him. But then, if the postmodernists are anywhere close to right it's not really up to Kuhn to say what he meant, or which side he is on

I think relativism and all its philosophical brethren are like the Wests kryptonite, slowly sapping it of strength and the will to live.

 

[CartesianFart]

Pretty much, yeah

@ CartFart: I don't think Thomas Kuhn really belongs on the postmodern list. Despite how much many postmodernists would like to claim him. But then, if the postmodernists are anywhere close to right it's not really up to Kuhn to say what he meant, or which side he is on

U might be right,but as Sherlock Holmes said,"Now this was a case in which you were given the results...now let me endeavor to show you the different steps in my reasoning."

Kuhn was obsess with the progressivist view of modern science,which claims truth in their knowledge.

For example:In Cosmology
The paradigms[a word he used alot in his books] has been Aristotelian-Ptolemaic-Copernican-Newtonian-Einsteinian.

Why do these paradigms change,they[this is Kuhn reasoning]unsolve puzzles,not truth.
Old scientist in Cosmology[using this field in theory of science as an example]died out and new one replace them.

If you think that is not postmodernism,then go by any means to refute it.I've made my decision what is.

Postmodernism=Historical process in any knowledge is not progressive,but actually cyclical and sometimes atavistic.Science is just another localized language game that assert its supremacy over soon to be upstart that challenge the conventional wisdom of the day.Philosophy is not immune to it either.

Modern Philosophy=Theory of conciousness,mass society theories,logic is progressing with the guidance of new discoveries in science.

 

[punkbass2000]

If you think that is not postmodernism,then go by any means to refute it.I've made my decision what is.

Uh oh, we have a solipsist on the loose!

 

[CartesianFart]

Uh oh, we have a solipsist on the loose!

Come on! We are all in a private island of our own thoughts,we might occasionly in the sea of randomness send smoke signals toward one another,but in the end we will all finally come to the conclusion that the limit of my language is the limit of my world.

 

[punkbass2000]

We are all in a private island of our own thoughts

We are all individuals! But really, I don't live on a my own private island.

we might occasionly in the sea of randomness send smoke signals toward one another

I think this is more a testament to the inadequacy of language than a fact per se.

but in the end we will all finally come to the conclusion that the limit of my language is the limit of my world.

I'm sorry to hear that. Language is not the limit to my world. It just puts it in various boxes which can be easily accessed, if necessary.

 

[CartesianFart]

We are all individuals! But really, I don't live on a my own private island.

Then you live in a crowded beach with everyone chatting in your ears telling you that you are not.You are really brainwashed.Go join a cult buddy,and tell me then of your experience of being nonindividual.

]I think this is more a testament to the inadequacy of language than a fact per se.

I thought i was stating that the sea of randomness is only a metaphor for language.Maybe you really need to rethink what a metaphor is really is.Nah!You probably dont think as your self as an individual to find out on your own.

I'm sorry to hear that. Language is not the limit to my world. It just puts it in various boxes which can be easily accessed, if necessary.

Maybe you need to leave the study of philosophy and join a circus to be a mime.They love coming in and out of boxes all the time.

 

[punkbass2000]

Then you live in a crowded beach with everyone chatting in your ears telling you that you are not.You are really brainwashed.

That's probably why I try not to listen to my brain all the time.

Go join a cult buddy,and tell me then of your experience of being nonindividual.

I don't need to join a cult to be a non-individual. I don't need a bunch of People telling me how to do it.

I thought i was stating that the sea of randomness is only a metaphor for language.Maybe you really need to rethink what a metaphor is really is.

If words are metaphors and metaphor is a word, I'm really in a difficult lingual predictament

Nah!You probably dont think as your self as an individual to find out on your own.

I think you misunderstand me when I say I am not an individual. I do not believe in "self" nor "other". They are just convenient labels.

Maybe you need to leave the study of philosophy and join a circus to be a mime.They love coming in and out of boxes all the time.

I don't need to join a circus to be a mime, do I?

 

[CartesianFart]

Man! You dont quit do you Punkbass?Like an argument on who is gonna say the last word.It was a cool mental excercise[i hope you dont go on like a 7 year old and ask me what is the definition of Mentality ],but i got to go to sleep.I work late at night and gotta get sleep.ciao

On the last note,on thing on being a truly independent thinker is to be honest of yourself.If you can make it an imparative to be honest as you will it to be an universal law,hopefully you can bring honesty and wisdom from others.Its hard to not to lie and its hard to tell what is a lie.

 

[punkbass2000]

Man! You dont quit do you Punkbass?

I cannot.

Like an argument on who is gonna say the last word.

I don't see it that way.

It was a cool mental excercise[i hope you dont go on like a 7 year old and ask me what is the definition of Mentality ],but i got to go to sleep.I work late at night and gotta get sleep.ciao

Have a good rest.

On the last note,on thing on being a truly independent thinker is to be honest of yourself.

I am honest by no such necessity. There is rarely reason to lie, so why bother with it?

If you can make it an imparative to be honest as you will it to be an universal law,hopefully you can bring honesty and wisdom from others.

Well, perhaps. I don't expect honesty and wisdom from others: I just assume it.

Its hard to not to lie and its hard to tell what is a lie.

I'm not quite sure what you mean here. In any case, I think most lies are the peril of the liar, not me.

 

[Taliesin]

So then all you wanted were specific examples of the PC movement influencing governments? Well then first and foremost: the UN. Its the Imperial Palace of the PC Empire Second, how about the common belief that Western nations have to provide never ending, ever increasing amounts of aid to their 'former' colonies?

All right, we're beginning to see an expression of PC as a political philosophy. Its first principles are that Western nations should make sacrifices to help developing nations, that countries should maintain an effective dialogue as equals, and that people should use language that is as inclusive and inoffensive as possible. Anything more?

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Bozo: Your honor, I object, he's leading the witness.

Judge: Youre the witness.

Bozo: Thats why Im objecting!

Judge: Overruled!

Taliesin, thanks for replying. Im leaving in a little while so I cant give a proper reply. I'll be back with something semi coherent tommorow.

 

[Taliesin]

Fine by me.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

All right, we're beginning to see an expression of PC as a political philosophy. Its first principles are that Western nations should make sacrifices to help developing nations,

A clarification: One of its principles is that the West is historically guilty of exploiting non Western nations and peoples, and treating them pretty shabbily to say the least (no argument there from me), and that therefore, we are required to send ever increasing amounts of financial aid in perpetuity, almost as an unofficial form of reparations. My argument with that part is that it treats non Western nations as if they were inherently inferior to the West. As if without constant Western aid and guidance, they would be unable to govern themselves responsibly and improve the quality of life of their citizens. I reject that completely because its just a continuation of the Western arrogance the PC people are so against. I on the other hand belive that non Western nations are fully capable of running their own affairs and improving their lot, if we just get out of their way and start treating them like equals. Its very difficult for Westerners to break free of their 'white mans burden' mentality.

that countries should maintain an effective dialogue as equals,

That isnt PC, its just common sense. However the UN is an international political forum where the two pillars of PC thought, that the West is evil, and the non West is its helpless, powerless, perpetual victim, reign supreme.

and that people should use language that is as inclusive and inoffensive as possible.

The emphasis in language should be on accuracy, truth, and avoiding the giggle factor, to the extent possible, and not so much on avoiding giving offense. Being inclusive and inoffensive is important, but carried to an extreme, it obfuscates instead of illuminates.

 

[Taliesin]

I guess the remaining principle of PC is that practices and symbols in other cultures should generally be respected, no matter how quaint, unless they cause harm. I know you disagree with this one, and view it as weak and relativist. I shouldn't like to rekindle our Venezuela argument, though, so I won't dispute this.

The only other point of disagreement between us is over what you call the white man's burden. I agree that sometimes this does seem to be the motivating factor in people's opinions about the developing world. However, I think that needs to be distinguished from recognising that Western countries do possess a very real fiduciary, moral, and even legal duty to repay developing countries for harms expressly committed by the West through the World Bank and IMF, let alone for colonial legacies. Not every problem is caused by the West, but some are, and it would be immoral to shirk what we owe.