A Petition to Merge NES-IOT

[Crezth]

Huh. I guess this implies that a high volume of threads on a single subject, like Alpha Centauri, justifies splitting it off from the rest of the games forums. Which means, given that NESing and IOT both have high volumes of topics on separate lines, that there's no reason to merge them based solely on any degree of similarity. You have to prove they are functionally the same -- proof which has been utterly lacking in this thread, as even posts by those supporting the merger state there is significant differences in the community and social atmosphere. Which, given their nature as social games, must necessarily mean they are significantly different products.

Alpha Centauri doesn't get its own forum because of a high volume of posts per se, but because it's in the category of Civilizational games which, on a Civilization-focused message board, merits an exceptional focus based on the nature of these boards alone. If you take a walk around and look at other message boards, you're less likely to see "Alpha Centauri" forums. On the 2K Forums, for instance, Civilization gets its own forum - as does BioShock, XCOM, and others. But there is not an Alpha Centauri forum to be found. So I don't think Alpha Centauri, being inherently different from other games, deserves its own forum on those merits alone.

Likewise, there doesn't seem to be a very well-established reason for separating NES from IOT, other than that they were founded separately and at very different times. What I'm saying is there's nothing inherent or exceptional about either that is immediately apparent when we consider, say, Mafia versus NES.

 

[North King]

Funnily enough, if you follow the link, you quickly see that Alpha Centauri was one of many boards that I could have picked.

 

[Crezth]

Funnily enough, if you follow the link, you quickly see that Alpha Centauri was one of many boards that I could have picked.

What I'm saying is the forum was prenecessitated by the discussion, not the other way around.

 

[North King]

But your initial point, that it's in the category of "civilizational" games (whatever that means), is clearly not the reason for its own subforum. Otherwise, why would SPORE or even chess have one? So I am left with the impression that a high volume of discussion about a single game necessitates an independent forum.

Your principal argument -- as I understand it -- is that they should be merged because they are "indistinguishable", a claim which is obviously untrue, as all hypothetical post-merger scenarios raised in this thread have speculated about "cross-pollination" and such. You yourself have implied we "have a lot to learn from one another."

If we have a lot to learn from one another and are different enough to merit the term "cross-pollination" then how are they the same type of game? It's not like we ignore IOT rulesets solely because they are in a different subforum -- I didn't exactly read up on the FFHNES's ruleset when it was popular. They are clearly different, if not because of intent, then at least because of a differing lineage; they may converge in some regards because systems like "economic points" or "military" are pretty standard things in IR RPGS; the reason for the petition in the first place is evidently that one subforum was supposedly "withering" and another not, not to enjoin the forums. No one is actually inconvenienced by them being in different places -- there are even threads in both subforums advertising NESes and IOTs which take players from the other!

Differences in culture were evident from the start -- the fact that someone responded to the concept of narratively-driven NESes with the word "lazyNES" is pretty telling.

 

[Crezth]

But your initial point, that it's in the category of "civilizational" games (whatever that means), is clearly not the reason for its own subforum. Otherwise, why would SPORE or even chess have one? So I am left with the impression that a high volume of discussion about a single game necessitates an independent forum.

Ehhh, good point. But I still don't see the evidence to assume that it's posting traffic alone. I think it was just moderator whim.

 

[North King]

Ya got me, I chose the simplest explanation for why there are separate forums for these games but not for others.

Please present a more compelling alternative.

 

[Luckymoose]

There are right and wrong ways to play freeform forum games?

Wow, I'm so glad I know that now.

No one said NESes were freeform.

 

[Double A]

No one said NESes were freeform.

If they aren't, then what are they?

 

[Crezth]

Ya got me, I chose the simplest explanation for why there are separate forums for these games but not for others.

Please present a more compelling alternative.

I think the moderators (or, more likely, Thunderfall) just assumed that These Things needed their own forums and imposed change to that effect. Same with the 2K Forums, actually - that the games in question were 2K games was incidental.

 

[North King]

If they aren't, then what are they?

What exactly do you mean by freeform?

I think the moderators (or, more likely, Thunderfall) just assumed that These Things needed their own forums and imposed change to that effect. Same with the 2K Forums, actually - that the games in question were 2K games was incidental.

Uh... so basically, people running this place are incompetent?

 

[Crezth]

Uh... so basically, people running this place are incompetent?

Where did I say that?

Ultimately I think the desire to manage perceived traffic and to focus conversation, be it due to a supposed or actual predominance of chess-talk, is what motivates not only segregating the alpha centauri forum from other games, but the unifcation of NES and IOT.

 

[Terrance888]

If they aren't, then what are they?

Not freeform.

 

[North King]

Where did I say that?

Ultimately I think the desire to manage perceived traffic and to focus conversation, be it due to a supposed or actual predominance of chess-talk, is what motivates not only segregating the alpha centauri forum from other games, but the unifcation of NES and IOT.

So, we're kinda shifting the goalposts here -- now it's about managing traffic and focusing conversation? As far as I'm aware these are not problems in the NES forum.

Though they probably would be in one diametrically opposed forum with divergent traditions, where active threads would be pushed at least halfway down the page for no apparent reason except to annoy casual browsers.

 

[spryllino]

The fact that many IOTers are clearly set against recognising that there is a right and a wrong way to do NESing is exactly why they are often incapable of playing in NESes in that right way.

Since they don't see that there is a right way and a wrong way to do it, the way that they play is not such a way that they are appreciated by other people who are playing with them - and since they're necessarily missing the point to a large extent, they are also incapable of playing in such a way that they derive much pleasure from the game themselves, and often end up quitting.

 

[Double A]

What exactly do you mean by freeform?

Players can do whatever they want, as long as it follows a logical path.

Freeform might not've been the right word. I've been extremely tired on weekdays since college started.

 

[Tee Kay]

Players can do whatever they want, as long as it follows a logical path.

Yeah, no.

 

[North King]

Players can do whatever they want, as long as it follows a logical path.

I mean, there are a lot of qualifiers that I'd add to that for NESing. It has to be logical and internally consistent within the rest of the NES -- for example, a country adopting Confucian morals in my NES wouldn't make the slightest bit of sense even if they transitioned to it over many turns -- there's simply no basis for that kind of thought in the entire fictional world its in.

Plus, what seems logical to one person isn't logical at all to another.

Freeform might not've been the right word. I've been extremely tired since college started for me.

It's alright, dude, we're all in some sort of similar boat (my work schedule has been acting up lately). Let's just assume good intentions in this discussion.

 

[Crezth]

So, we're kinda shifting the goalposts here -- now it's about managing traffic and focusing conversation? As far as I'm aware these are not problems in the NES forum.

I haven't seen any shift in the goalposts. It's all part of the same goal: pushing forums together is about keeping like conversations in the same place to avoid redundancy. And it's as much about workload for the mods as it is users being able to click-click-click to a forum and know what they're looking at. IOT and NES are not names conducive to this end. Now, I don't suggest a name change away from this (except perhaps to Nebberpug) but you can see how condensing forums and managing traffic are like goals.

Though they probably would be in one diametrically opposed forum with divergent traditions, where active threads would be pushed at least halfway down the page for no apparent reason except to annoy casual browsers.

I wouldn't characterize IOT as "diametrically opposed" to NES. As I have gone to great lengths to describe, IOTs and NESes have significant crossover in terms of definition and execution.

Other forums survive with long-lived threads over long periods of time despite other, fleeting, more tempestuous traffic. Off-Topic with its few megathreads and plenty of microthreads is testament to that.

 

[Tee Kay]

I am personally in favour of a merge by the way. But I recognise that there are two communities with broadly different approaches and mentality. And definitely I say don't force a merge if there isn't a consensus, which there isn't.

 

[North King]

I haven't seen any shift in the goalposts. It's all part of the same goal: pushing forums together is about keeping like conversations in the same place to avoid redundancy. And it's as much about workload for the mods as it is users being able to click-click-click to a forum and know what they're looking at. IOT and NES are not names conducive to this end. Now, I don't suggest a name change away from this (except perhaps to Nebberpug) but you can see how condensing forums and managing traffic are like goals.

Well if it's about managing traffic, then the pro-merger side becomes absolutely nonsensical. We have, what, one incident every four months or so on the NESing forum? Which Bird handles quite well. Why push another forum into it and double their workload -- especially when as evidenced by this very thread, that would lead to quite an acrimonious forum?

I wouldn't characterize IOT as "diametrically opposed" to NES. As I have gone to great lengths to describe, IOTs and NESes have significant crossover in terms of definition and execution.

And as I and others have gone to great lengths to show -- they are, especially in terms of forum culture. Please stop acting like this is a settled matter. You have posted your arguments and failed to convince a great number of people. As have I -- but the only reason I'm reiterating these things is because you appear to be ignoring their existence!

Other forums survive with long-lived threads over long periods of time despite other, fleeting, more tempestuous traffic. Off-Topic with its few megathreads and plenty of microthreads is testament to that.

Off-topic threads tend to die unless they are long-runners or constantly at the top of the page.