A Petition to Merge NES-IOT

[JohannaK]

I am personally in favour of a merge by the way. But I recognise that there are two communities with broadly different approaches and mentality. And definitely I say don't force a merge if there isn't a consensus, which there isn't.

I think most if not all agree to this.

 

[Crezth]

Well if it's about managing traffic, then the pro-merger side becomes absolutely nonsensical. We have, what, one incident every four months or so on the NESing forum? Which Bird handles quite well. Why push another forum into it and double their workload -- especially when as evidenced by this very thread, that would lead to quite an acrimonious forum?

Because there's an extra administrative "cost" incurred by having multiple forums. In addition to being unwieldy, spreading mods thin across several forums is not utilizing their time properly. Mods don't have a lot of time to police the forums so cutting down on their workload is desirable.

NES doesn't need a large incident every week to incur these costs - a report every other day in WWW or otherwise is enough. And even if we were a model community that required no policing (I mean, I certainly don't think we need moderation, but I'm in the minority on that one), that doesn't qualify as an argument in and of itself when a moderator is still technically required to be assigned to us.

And as I and others have gone to great lengths to show -- they are, especially in terms of forum culture. Please stop acting like this is a settled matter. You have posted your arguments and failed to convince a great number of people. As have I -- but the only reason I'm reiterating these things is because you appear to be ignoring their existence!

No, I understand your points, but they center around the cultures of the player-base which are not what I'm talking about. NESes are such a broad category and IOTs are such a broad category that you could run an IOT in NES and nobody would think twice. Indeed, if IOT had *never even started*, and it had just been people running RISK-like games in NES starting from several years ago, we wouldn't have ever realized we'd given birth to such an apparently radically different thing.

Off-topic threads tend to die unless they are long-runners or constantly at the top of the page.

What's a long-runner? Like N3S? I don't see how that disarms my point.

 

[North King]

Because there's an extra administrative "cost" incurred by having multiple forums. In addition to being unwieldy, spreading mods thin across several forums is not utilizing their time properly. Mods don't have a lot of time to police the forums so cutting down on their workload is desirable.

NES doesn't need a large incident every week to incur these costs - a report every other day in WWW or otherwise is enough. And even if we were a model community that required no policing (I mean, I certainly don't think we need moderation, but I'm in the minority on that one), that doesn't qualify as an argument in and of itself when a moderator is still technically required to be assigned to us.

...Like I said. We're not even one of Bird's responsibilities. He seems okay with it. I don't think you or I should be determining what's good or bad for him.

No, I understand your points, but they center around the cultures of the player-base which are not what I'm talking about. NESes are such a broad category and IOTs are such a broad category that you could run an IOT in NES and nobody would think twice. Indeed, if IOT had *never even started*, and it had just been people running RISK-like games in NES starting from several years ago, we wouldn't have ever realized we'd given birth to such an apparently radically different thing.

See, you clearly don't understand the points if you think the player culture is irrelevant to the discussion. The point we're actually making is that the culture -- which you acknowledge is different -- is a sufficient reason to declare them different. It's a social game, the social atmosphere matters.

What's a long-runner? Like N3S? I don't see how that disarms my point.

I'm not really sure why you're trying to bring my NES into it, except perhaps to annoy me? But no, the long-runners are not what I'm concerned about (precisely because, as I said, it wouldn't die); I'm saying this because NES startups would invariably get pushed from the top of the page.

 

[spryllino]

No, I understand your points, but they center around the cultures of the player-base which are not what I'm talking about. NESes are such a broad category and IOTs are such a broad category that you could run an IOT in NES and nobody would think twice. Indeed, if IOT had *never even started*, and it had just been people running RISK-like games in NES starting from several years ago, we wouldn't have ever realized we'd given birth to such an apparently radically different thing.

You still haven't given any examples of NESes that could very well be IOTs, or IOTs that could very well be NESes, although you have several times stated that such things exist in numbers.

(Also, I agree with what NK says about cultures being central to the whole thing.)

 

[Lord_Iggy]

That's why I don't venture too much into NES. I tried it myself, but found the atmosphere to be not friendly to new players.

You joined my NES and then never did anything.

 

[Crezth]

You still haven't given any examples of NESes that could very well be IOTs, or IOTs that could very well be NESes, although you have several times stated that such things exist in numbers.

I did. Already. You dismissed them as not really good examples because of Reasons.

To give an example nonetheless, you could take Blood and Iron, an IOT, and transpose it to the NES forum as is with no NESer going "hang on, this is not a NES." I know because I did this with CNES. I didn't copy the exact look of Blood and Iron but I did borrow from its spreadsheet-based stats and rules - in fact the way the stats were presented and the rigid reliance on hard rule and numbers make it very akin to an IOT. Other than that, the rules were completely of my own undertaking, and I maintain that I could have run CNES as CIOT and got no turned heads. The reason people saw CNES as a NES was the name and place.

And I don't see the cultural difference beyond the hubris. I'm sorry, I don't. In truth, NESers seem more interested with their image as being paragons of roleplay and diplo-politica than with actually being those things. One need only look at all of the RTORs, the DipNESes, the ZPNES, and even EQ's NESes as a perfect case example of how NESers are quite capable of operating IOT-like games, with IOT-like concern for "winning" and a lack of any regard for intellectualism or realism, with no apparent respect for irony.

 

[North King]

Okay, I have taken a look at "It's A Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad, World", evidently one of the more RP-oriented IOTs, and putting it alongside Capto Iugulum, supposedly an NES with a lack of regard for "intellectualism or realism"...

I think the difference in culture is pretty dang obvious.

But honestly, Symphony said it better.

 

[Double A]

Okay, I have taken a look at "It's A Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad, World", evidently one of the more RP-oriented IOTs, and putting it alongside Capto Iugulum, supposedly an NES with a lack of regard for "intellectualism or realism"...

I think the difference in culture is pretty dang obvious.

But honestly, Symphony said it better.

That IOT is intentionally silly. Just in case that wasn't abundantly clear.

 

[Luckymoose]

I did. Already. You dismissed them as not really good examples because of Reasons.

To give an example nonetheless, you could take Blood and Iron, an IOT, and transpose it to the NES forum as is with no NESer going "hang on, this is not a NES." I know because I did this with CNES. I didn't copy the exact look of Blood and Iron but I did borrow from its spreadsheet-based stats and rules - in fact the way the stats were presented and the rigid reliance on hard rule and numbers make it very akin to an IOT. Other than that, the rules were completely of my own undertaking, and I maintain that I could have run CNES as CIOT and got no turned heads. The reason people saw CNES as a NES was the name and place.

And I don't see the cultural difference beyond the hubris. I'm sorry, I don't. In truth, NESers seem more interested with their image as being paragons of roleplay and diplo-politica than with actually being those things. One need only look at all of the RTORs, the DipNESes, the ZPNES, and even EQ's NESes as a perfect case example of how NESers are quite capable of operating IOT-like games, with IOT-like concern for "winning" and a lack of any regard for intellectualism or realism, with no apparent respect for irony.

You're failing to mention that by calling it NES you invited certain roleplay styles into CNES, which were then shot down. What came out of that was a dislike of CNES by a few of the players who wanted a NES experience, myself included. I don't think you see that IOTs are, almost universally, of a quality below even the most mundane of NESes, as NK pointed out with that one IOT. There is a great difference in depth, and when that depth is not present the NESes are shunned quickly. ZPNES was what CNES should have been: a story-driven lite NES. When you lie to your players, your players get angry. By presenting IOTs as NESes, the players get pissed. This appears to go both ways.

 

[Crezth]

What a transparent rewriting of history. But oh well: let you be suited to what lies comfort you most.

 

[Tyo]

Okay, I have taken a look at "It's A Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad, World", evidently one of the more RP-oriented IOTs, and putting it alongside Capto Iugulum, supposedly an NES with a lack of regard for "intellectualism or realism"...

I think the difference in culture is pretty dang obvious.

But honestly, Symphony said it better.

I don't think that comparison makes any kind of sense. Mad World has Deadpoolistan.

I think I'll link my own IOT for this case. Not necessarily to compare with CI but to present the point that IOT can be flexible.

 

[Luckymoose]

What a transparent rewriting of history. But oh well: let you be suited to what lies comfort you most.

You're trying to define IOTs as something they are not. You're also defining the success of CNES as a NES as something it was not. I just looked at Tyo's space IOT. The thing is full of plagiarists. Do IOTers get a kick out of outright theft for such games? Isn't the point of it to be original?

IOTers who come to NESing and don't understand what originality is have been doing this for years. We had a space NES once. CivGeneral tried to be anime humans.

 

[Double A]

Mad World is basically IOT on crack cut with pixie stix and rainbows. Not a difficult concept.

IOTers don't steal rules from each other, they build on other rulesets. Refining rules is in no way negative, and every game brings something original to the table.

 

[ChiefDesigner]

Other than that, the rules were completely of my own undertaking, and I maintain that I could have run CNES as CIOT and got no turned heads. The reason people saw CNES as a NES was the name and place.

There was also Thlayli's multi-thousand word history, which quite a few of us used to guide the creation of our states; I would call that backstory uncharacteristic of IOTs, as they tend towards the blank-slate method of nation creation.

 

[Tyo]

Although not to that scale, back stories have been forged in IOT. I again point to my own space IOT, and all adaptions of iron and blood have had backstory to most every country.

You're trying to define IOTs as something they are not. You're also defining the success of CNES as a NES as something it was not. I just looked at Tyo's space IOT. The thing is full of plagiarists. Do IOTers get a kick out of outright theft for such games? Isn't the point of it to be original?

IOTers who come to NESing and don't understand what originality is have been doing this for years. We had a space NES once. CivGeneral tried to be anime humans.

With respect to borrowing species from other works, I have allowed it because forging your very own in-depth, original species not inspired by some work of fiction or another would be nearly impossible.

That's assuming you're talking about the players and not the rules themselves. I designed the game without using any IOT or NES for reference in that regard.


Disclaimer: what with the huge negative feedback received by NES about this a forced merge would be unwise I believe, but I honestly approve of the idea of a merge if and when the time is right. Failing that if IOT really wanted to we could just advise users to give NES a spin to seal the deal so to speak, and answer the question of whether or not the two societies really are so different(which I think a lot of you are exaggerating but I digress; the difference is certainly there even if it is artificial.)

 

[Luckymoose]

With respect to borrowing species from other works, I have allowed it because forging your very own in-depth, original species not inspired by some work of fiction or another would be nearly impossible.

That's assuming you're talking about the players and not the rules themselves. I designed the game without using any IOT or NES for reference in that regard.

I am referring to the players themselves. Rules adaptation and evolution is a norm in any gaming society. You don't have the reinvent the wheel. But what I am concerned about is this flamboyant disregard for creativity that is being fostered in the IOT community. Wherein a player, such as SonicTF, can simply steal, name and all, a species from another work of fiction. This isn't fun for the players that actually do try to submit something original. It is exceedingly easy to create something original enough to pass off as your own. Look at Iggy's application. NESers do this kind of thing all the time.

We frown on plagiarism. Inspiration and homage are not the same as plagiarism, but even close concepts would be hard pressed for acceptance unless the player did them particularly well. If you are telling your players that you do not care if they strive for creativity, originality, etc. then why should they improve? What is it that makes them want to do something better than before? You're hurting yourself in the long run by allowing this to prosper in your "better" IOTs. Trust me man, you're human beings. You have the same creative potential as anyone else.

Have fun in creation. Collaborate on the special. These details are being pushed aside by the pro-merger crowd without a second thought. The NESing ethos is different but there is nothing to stop you from adapting, if you want to. It cannot be forced. If IOTs as they stand are what you want then our communities should never merge.

 

[Birdjaguar]

But your initial point, that it's in the category of "civilizational" games (whatever that means), is clearly not the reason for its own subforum. Otherwise, why would SPORE or even chess have one? So I am left with the impression that a high volume of discussion about a single game necessitates an independent forum.

Alpha Centauri was given its own place because it was a Sid Meier creation. Spore got its place on spec and everyone lost on that. I would guess that inertia is the reason it has not been changed.

The fact that many IOTers are clearly set against recognising that there is a right and a wrong way to do NESing is exactly why they are often incapable of playing in NESes in that right way.

Since they don't see that there is a right way and a wrong way to do it, the way that they play is not such a way that they are appreciated by other people who are playing with them - and since they're necessarily missing the point to a large extent, they are also incapable of playing in such a way that they derive much pleasure from the game themselves, and often end up quitting.

Such language is more provocative than we need.

...Like I said. We're not even one of Bird's responsibilities. He seems okay with it. I don't think you or I should be determining what's good or bad for him.

Wait, have I been demoted?
I thought I was the mod for both NESing and IOT? Ainwood! Why didn't you tell me?

 

[Lord_Iggy]

Yeah, I have to say, I haven't been wildly impressed with SonicTF's reuse of the Chua, but I wasn't really bothered because I wasn't familiar with WildStar. However, Double A using Pokémon... well, to me at least, it feels like it cheapens the setting. However, it's entirely Tyo's decision to determine what is permitted in his IOT, and what is not. One way or another, the Hlur-Baiheen will just treat them as they would treat any other alien species.

EDIT:

With respect to borrowing species from other works, I have allowed it because forging your very own in-depth, original species not inspired by some work of fiction or another would be nearly impossible.

Tyo, I don't think it's impossible to create interesting, original species. Certainly several of your players have already done so. Players don't even have to be that original- they could just 'file off the serial numbers', if they wanted to.

 

[Double A]

Yeah, I have to say, I haven't been wildly impressed with SonicTF's reuse of the Chua, but I wasn't really bothered because I wasn't familiar with WildStar. However, Double A using Pokémon... well, to me at least, it feels like it cheapens the setting. However, it's entirely Tyo's decision to determine what is permitted in his IOT, and what is not. One way or another, the Hlur-Baiheen will just treat them as they would treat any other alien species.

I've actually got a really complex headcanon for this game but I'm short on time and especially energy during the week. Gonna write so much this Friday and Saturday for so many things.

Probably gonna come up with a different name too.

 

[Terrance888]

snip.

I approve of the way this message is expressed.