A place for violence

I also struggle to see who would jump all over the crazy guy with punches and stuff. Wouldn't that make you the crazy guy?

Actually, no one yet has definitively said "I'd jump all over the guy with punches and stuff." And I see nothing to indicate the guy is "crazy." He is clearly depicted as a racist, and a racist who isn't particularly shy about it. That doesn't really imply "crazy." Some people, lately, are calling it "presidential."
 
We have to speak in hypothetical here, because no one wants to be held liable for advocating violence or inciting a riot. No one is trying to play any mind games with that. It is only a limitation imposed by a lack of free speech; so we work within the confines of what speech is allowed.

Indeed.
 
If people are concerned about the ramifications for the store dick, they should consider that one can also call the cops to inform them of the malfeasance occurring and return to the store at a later date to inform the manager of the police report such that the manager will know what really occurred. This should help to protect the position of the store dick against any adverse action.
 
If people are concerned about the ramifications for the store dick, they should consider that one can also call the cops to inform them of the malfeasance occurring and return to the store at a later date to inform the manager of the police report such that the manager will know what really occurred. This should help to protect the position of the store dick against any adverse action.

Should. Again this seems rooted in a more "the workplace is fair" view than I personally hold, but okay.
 
Am I in Canada or America?

If I'm in Canada I whip out phone, start recording video, and yell ("HEY THIS GUY IS TRYING TO START FIGHTS BY CALLING PEOPLE <REDACTED>") to attract attention. I don't involve myself physically, leave as soon as situation appears under control, and if anything of note happens, I anonymously send cops/media youtube link to the video.

If I'm in America I point out to dad that he's personally the reason that America sucks and leave, because I ain't involving myself with American cops.
 
That I was respectfully agreeing that given your (perfectly valid) view of the world your response made complete sense.

I live in Canada, when I walk down the street I don't assume things about people based on their skin colour. Maybe it's different where you live, and I realize that as a white person I have some privilege here in Canada as well, so I am not saying that I don't.

However, I would not assume that a black Canadian would lose his job, for doing his job, just because he's black. That would not cross my mind. We have some problems here, including some racial problems, but I would not expect anything like that to happen. It could, but a reasonable Canadian would assume that it probably wouldn't, again, assuming that the undercover guy followed protocol.

Where I live most people would side with the undercover guy.. NOT the angry racist guy. The best thing for you to do, if this ever happened to you in Canada, is get out of the way and let the guy do his job.

I realize that you are trying to say "You are a white guy, you don't understand".. but then you should just come out and say that.

And you'd be wrong, anyway.

You should preface your hypothetical with the exact location. If the first sentence read: "Imagine you find yourself in a racist place where African Americans are routinely taken advantage of and discriminated against systematically, a place where the cops are racist and will always side with the white guy", then yeah, the scenario changes completely. I am assuming the scenario to take place in my neighbourhood.
 
warpus said:
You should preface your hypothetical with the exact location. If the first sentence read: "Imagine you find yourself in a racist place where African Americans are routinely taken advantage of and discriminated against systematically, a place where the cops are racist and will always side with the white guy", then yeah, the scenario changes completely. I am assuming the scenario to take place in my neighbourhood.

You're a long way from Kansas, Dorothy.
 
I live in Canada, when I walk down the street I don't assume things about people based on their skin colour. Maybe it's different where you live, and I realize that as a white person I have some privilege here in Canada as well, so I am not saying that I don't.

However, I would not assume that a black Canadian would lose his job, for doing his job, just because he's black. That would not cross my mind. We have some problems here, including some racial problems, but I would not expect anything like that to happen. It could, but a reasonable Canadian would assume that it probably wouldn't, again, assuming that the undercover guy followed protocol.

Where I live most people would side with the undercover guy.. NOT the angry racist guy. The best thing for you to do, if this ever happened to you in Canada, is get out of the way and let the guy do his job.

I realize that you are trying to say "You are a white guy, you don't understand".. but then you should just come out and say that.

And you'd be wrong, anyway.

You should preface your hypothetical with the exact location. If the first sentence read: "Imagine you find yourself in a racist place where African Americans are routinely taken advantage of and discriminated against systematically, a place where the cops are racist and will always side with the white guy", then yeah, the scenario changes completely. I am assuming the scenario to take place in my neighbourhood.

Actually, the guy losing his job most likely wouldn't have anything to do with skin color. "I got in this fight but it wasn't my fault" in my opinion, would be extremely unlikely to salvage the situation for ANY warm body filling a low wage job in some minor outpost of a giant corporate chain (and yes, I acknowledge that I never specified what kind of store it is).

I do think that in the job market where I happen to live a white guy with "UCLP, fired for fight with customer" on his resume has some chance of getting a job, where the black guy would be unemployed basically for life.
 
Applications always have a space for "reason for leaving" and you definitely lie at your own risk.
 
I've recently been taken to task over my willingness to embrace violence. This prompts me to open a discussion of a situation we'll call a hypothetical.

Assume you are a white person. Not because a white person is vastly different from person in general, but in the construction of the hypothetical situation there will be people who base their actions on the color of your skin, so for the situation to make sense this is a prerequisite.

I will construct the situation piece by piece. Please be patient.

Location: a store you frequent. Corner mini-mart, drug store, whatever. Not a big supermarket; too many employees and probably too crowded (make that too many people...the bigger store means they aren't really 'crowded,' but we have to limit the overall number). 'Frequent" means just that. This isn't an auto parts store where you buy brake pads every few years when they wear out. This is a store where you buy milk, or beer, or smokes, you go there often enough that the cashiers know your brand when you say "two packs."

The players:

Undercover loss prevention specialist. This guy is a store employee. He hangs around the store in street clothes, looking for shoplifters. You know him, because you come in often enough that his "cover" just doesn't work. At some point you struck up a conversation with him, and found out you have some common interests in sports. Having someone to talk to actually makes him less obvious in his hanging around not shopping, so when you aren't in a hurry you stop and converse with him. You don't even know each other's names, but on some superficial level you might consider him a friend.

A kid. This kid is mid teens. He's been caught boosting some small thing from the store at some point. He was given a pass, but told not to come back in the store. Getting a pass was a gift, since store policy actually requires holding such miscreants and filing a police report, but with youngsters boosting small items there's a hope that a simple "scared straight" will be at least as effective and maybe more...plus, when such a miscreant has to be held for a few hours until the cops show up there's a good chance his miscreant friends came in the store with him and keeping an eye on them is more useful anyway.

Scene.

You are talking to loss prevention guy (UCLP) about <sport of choice> when he sees the kid down an aisle. He has to go after the kid. You tag along, sort of on autopilot, expecting a quick "beat it kid" and return to conversation. UCLP provides the expected dialog, something along the lines of "I told you before not to come back in the store."

Enter unexpectedly, coming around the end of the aisle, Kid's dad. His entry line is "Get away from my kid." This being pretty reasonable, UCLP steps back. At this point some sort of explanation is required. UCLP says "My apologies. I'm a store employee assigned to loss prevention. Your son and I have met before. Anything he wants to tell you about that is his business, but the result is that he isn't welcome in the store. As long as you are with him though it will be okay."

Dad's response is "I don't care, you don't talk to my kid." He's obviously agitated. Coming down off adrenaline rush of defending his kid maybe, starting to consider why his kid is banned from the store maybe and get mad at the kid, hard to tell.

UCLP seems to give him some benefit of the doubt, and apologizes again. "Sorry about that. I have a job to do so sometimes I have to talk to people in the store." At this point there seems to be nothing more to say that would be productive, and he takes a step back, putting him arms reach from you.

Dad takes backing away as backing down, and puffs up like a banty rooster. He moves quickly forward, getting close enough to speak in a low voice and be heard, and says "Swing at me <your guess is no doubt accurate> and lose your job." He looks at you, who are standing close enough to hear him clearly, with a grin that says that he fully expects you, since you are on the "right side" of a skin color equation, to have his back in whatever happens when the cops get there.

Soooooo...what is the appropriate action here?

The appropriate action is to stop dick measuring and de-escalate the situation as the whole thing is probably on camera, and most likely from at least 3 different angles. I've yet to see a retail store, even the small ones, that doesn't have everything being recorded in the entire store, and frankly, some of the loss prevention investigations (especially at the larger retail stores where a lot of shoplifting gets attempted) make regular police work look downright shoddy. They are extremely professional, at least from my interaction with them, and as such, they aren't going to take the first swing in any situation like you describe here.

Big retail stores like Walmart run their security like a Vegas casino. Not kidding. You try to boost stuff from those stores you will get caught sooner or later. And they prosecute everyone, no gimmes, no take-backs.
 
Yeah. Let's assume we aren't talking about WalMart. I also think you might broaden your horizons because I've seen the camera coverage in my local Rite-Aid and no, it doesn't remind me of security at a Las Vegas Casino. I'm not sure where the line between WalMarts and RiteAids lies, but they are definitely different.
 
Yeah. Let's assume we aren't talking about WalMart. I also think you might broaden your horizons because I've seen the camera coverage in my local Rite-Aid and no, it doesn't remind me of security at a Las Vegas Casino. I'm not sure where the line between WalMarts and RiteAids lies, but they are definitely different.

Of course they are. But RiteAids (or other chain drug stores) do have decent security cameras (at least the ones around here do) for this very reason. I work as a criminal prosecution paralegal for a jurisdiction with a population of around 150k or so. I see quite a bit of retail theft on a daily basis, so my horizons are pretty broad as is.

But all of that is beside the point of my answer to your base premise - is violence justified in that scenario? The obvious answer is nope.
 
Of course they are. But RiteAids (or other chain drug stores) do have decent security cameras (at least the ones around here do) for this very reason. I work as a criminal prosecution paralegal for a jurisdiction with a population of around 150k or so. I see quite a bit of retail theft on a daily basis, so my horizons are pretty broad as is.

But all of that is beside the point of my answer to your base premise - is violence justified in that scenario? The obvious answer is nope.

Mark this day folks. Common ground.
 
I wouldn't get involved unless the dad attacked the loss-prevention dude & then I'd have my friend's back.

On a non-scenario related tangent : In general I'm very skeptical of pacifists. They simply aren't very effective. Would the mob hire a pacifist to repossess stolen or owed funds? Pacifism is the privilege of those who don't actually care about results.
 
I wouldn't get involved unless the dad attacked the loss-prevention dude & then I'd have my friend's back.

On a non-scenario related tangent : In general I'm very skeptical of pacifists. They simply aren't very effective. Would the mob hire a pacifist to repossess stolen or owed funds? Pacifism is the privilege of those who don't actually care about results.

Can you claim to be a pacifist if you pay taxes?
 
Actually, the guy losing his job most likely wouldn't have anything to do with skin color. "I got in this fight but it wasn't my fault" in my opinion, would be extremely unlikely to salvage the situation for ANY warm body filling a low wage job in some minor outpost of a giant corporate chain (and yes, I acknowledge that I never specified what kind of store it is).

I do think that in the job market where I happen to live a white guy with "UCLP, fired for fight with customer" on his resume has some chance of getting a job, where the black guy would be unemployed basically for life.

So the employee would not get in the fight. What is your issue with that?

Sometimes one gets verbally attacked. Sometimes the situation, money-related dynamics etc, can force one to suck it up. It is ugly, yet it is nothing new. Again, why is this particular case something beyond the usual jerk attitudes one can be facing?

In other countries people happen to die on a daily basis due to being on the wrong side of a fence. Eg Israel. Being more likely to have slurs hurled at you cause you are a black person in the US is bad, yet it is not really the major ill with our stupid species.
 
So the employee would not get in the fight. What is your issue with that?

I have no issue with it. I'm just not necessarily assuming the employee has that choice. The Racist Dad, as portrayed, is clearly willing to fight, and well aware that the fight, no matter how it turns out physically, will have life changing consequences for his "enemy." If he's thinking a couple blows, a quick grapple, break away and start moaning the blues he has a very good chance of coming away with no charges filed either way but enormous damage done to the guy who doesn't seem to deserve it.

It may not be the fatalities faced by Palestinians, but do you think just letting that happen to somebody is the right thing to do? Or is it just an unfortunate event that you don't see anything you could do about it?

By the way...@MobBoss...take off your "I work at the courthouse, would probably know the cops who show up if it comes to that, and my statement on what happens will carry the day and see that justice is done" hat. I acknowledge that you do have that hat. Without that position, just being an ordinary guy, are you less confident about the cops will get it right so no need to get involved here for justice to win out in the end?
 
Yeah, this is pretty clearly a situation where attempting to fight the racist dad is a terrible idea. If the dad actually assaults the employee unprovoked, then he would have the legal right to defend himself, and the bystander could get involved. As stated, though, the employee has no reason to get himself involved in a fight, no matter how racist the dad was being.
 
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