A question to Communists:

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Name 10 things that pervert capitalism in the US? Probably the very things that ensure at least a descent education and other social rights. The USSR had so far removed itself from Communism by the time of its collapse that any comparison is pointless.

Subsidies
Social Security
Welfare
Interstate Highway System
The Federal Reserve
etc...

You see how easy it is to say that something is a perversion of something else? It becomes almost useless to debate pure capitalism and pure communism because neither is absolutely attainable.
 
I really wish all of you who support Communism that are living in nonCommunist nations to stop benefiting from your current standard of living and just go move to Communist nations. Just go there and leave the rest of the world alone.

Communist nation is a contradiction in terms. Any communism must be world communism.Most of the nations calling themselves communist are feudalistic dictatorships.
 
I'm really just opposing him because I find capitalism taken too far repugnant. I don't believe in total communism, I'd probably class myself as a Democratic Socialist, but I just felt the need to defend it.

I class myself too as an Democratic Socialist but I don't blame an economical system, I'll blame an government if something goes wrong in the USA.

If Kim jung-il fails in his governing, I blame him, not socialism or communism.

How the hell can poeple think you can blame an ideology by pointing out countries cause no country ever in the world has ever got 100% of either of the two ideologies.

EDIT: damn you Godwynn, you crossposter :lol:
 
Communist nation is a contradiction in terms. Any communism must be world communism.Most of the nations calling themselves communist are feudalistic dictatorships.

Then it's pointless to be for communism as it is just an ideal. The same with laissez-faire capitalism.

The whole world will not become communist.
 
You wouldn't support one nation turning communist then? Only when the whole world is ready to?
I would support a revolution if it didn't use the state as a means for change. That's what I mean by communism being incongruous with the idea of a nation. I mentioned Anarchist Catalonia- that was just one corner of Spain, but they ignored the mewlings of the local government and created a new society.

Obviously the whole world won't change at once, but sometimes many large parts of it are thinking the same way (think of how the 1960s were a time of student revolt in the Americas and Europe) and that's always nice.
 
Subsidies
Social Security
Welfare
Interstate Highway System
The Federal Reserve
etc...
Are those perversions of the initial ideal of capitalism, or are they preservations of it? Evolutions, so to speak? If we see capitalism as the idea that property should be privately owned, workers should be paid with wages, and profit should dictate how a business is run, then those things may be the only thing keeping capitalism running.

Without social security, certain government interventions, and welfare, the people might decide, like an incorrigible lolcat, that "Capitalizms? DO NOT WANT." They'd overthrow it and you'd have no capitalizms at all.

Many on the right thing that government and business are two irreconcilable forces battling it out, but I think that they are in fact often the same people. They are definately of the same class, and have the same general interests. They work together to some extent. Capitalism probably functions better (for capitalists) with an authoritarian government behind it.
 
Hmm, how do commies propose to remove people's individual property rights without their consent, and how will compliance be forced?
 
I really wish all of you who support Communism that are living in nonCommunist nations to stop benefiting from your current standard of living and just go move to Communist nations. Just go there and leave the rest of the world alone.

I can't handle different view points so just leave.
 
Hmm, how do commies propose to remove people's individual property rights without their consent, and how will compliance be forced?

they could always vote for them, that is if theres a communist party in a country and that party gets the majority vote. so most of the people agree that the state should own every thing and thats how democracy works. unfortunately all communist goverment were not elected.( if im wrong about them all communist regimes not being elected democraticaly please someone correct me)
 
they could always vote for them, that is if theres a communist party in a country and that party gets the majority vote. so most of the people agree that the state should own every thing and thats how democracy works. unfortunately all communist goverment were not elected.( if im wrong about them all communist regimes not being elected democraticaly please someone correct me)

Sounds like mob rule. A lot of countries have constitutions for protecting their citizen's rights. I guess people who didn't want to give up their businesses or property could emigrate and move them abroad if possible.
 
Sounds like mob rule. A lot of countries have constitutions for protecting their citizen's rights. I guess people who didn't want to give up their businesses or property could emigrate and move them abroad if possible.

care to explain the difference between mob rule and democracy? is it that one has a constitution while the other is based completely of of people votes?
plus constitutions can always be amended
 
Capitalism vs Communism is simply a question of how much risk you're willing to take.
 
care to explain the difference between mob rule and democracy? is it that one has a constitution while the other is based completely of of people votes?
plus constitutions can always be amended

You're right, which is why I'm pleased that communist parties in my country have such a tiny membership. The chances of it happening here are slim. :)
 
Hmm, how do commies propose to remove people's individual property rights without their consent, and how will compliance be forced?
I'm not a communist, I'm an anarchist, but I'll answer your question all the same. When you talk about individual property rights you are talking about the rights of some individuals at the expense of others. The French anarchist Pierre Joseph Proudhon said, in 1840, "Property is theft!" and what he meant by that was if, for example, I need a place to live and have little money, I will have to rent a house- and this means that someone is exploiting my basic need, shelter, by forcing me to pay him for it. That's downright authoritarian.

If I work for someone I will have to submit to their commands because they "own" the business. I will have to accept the wages thye give me even though wages do not represent how much work you do- they represent how much money the employer has to pay you in order for you to keep working there. If they could they would pay you nothing. It's a one-sided, parasitic relationship.

But because one of my most basic human needs, the ability to feed and clothe myself, is only attainable through working for someone else under capitalism, I have no choice. That sounds pretty dictatorial as well.

Under capitalism, if I do not own anything I can sell I will have to sell myself, my body, to someone who does own property. It is another form of slavery, and actually a more efficient form for the bosses because they no longer have to cook for you, clothe you, or house you.

I think you believe in liberty- that's good, so do I. If you do believe in liberty why do you support this new form of slavery where some people must work for others?

As far as your original question- if by individual property rights you mean a family with a farm, a craftsman working out of his own house, a self-employed computer programmer doing his thing- that's fine. We would let them be and even help them if they needed it. The anarcho-syndicalists of Catalonia respected the right of individual farmers to be left alone.

All anarchist communes and cooperatives would be voluntary efforts that would encourage by example- these cooperatives would have no bosses and would decide what to do on a democratic and participatory basis- we would hope that people would like the idea and try it themselves.

However, if you talk of a larger business enterprise where people worked not for themselves but for other people, the tyrannical slavery I talked of earlier, we would assume that no worker, given the choice between working for a boss and being hungry all the time or working without a boss with others on an equal footing (or alone) would choose the boss. People would simply refuse to work for the capitalists. We wouldn't need to opress them or anything, just refuse to be their slaves.
 
Well, I don't have the time right now to answer those larger questions, but I'll get onto it tomorrow.

I just came here to post because I found this at the bottom of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights:

Article 30.

Nothing in this Declaration may be interpreted as implying for any State, group or person any right to engage in any activity or to perform any act aimed at the destruction of any of the rights and freedoms set forth herein.

Look's like my butt is covered.
 
Communism doesn't work because capitalism encourages the greed which prevents communism from working.

However, we need to find the perfect middle ground between capitalism and communism as neither are inherently superior.

Capitalism doesn't pretend that greed and vice don't exist. Communism does. It pretends that the social bonds that prevent me from free-riding off of my family and friends extends to strangers. It doesn't.

Communism's a great way to run an apartment of 4 friends. Its a horrible way to run a country of 4 million, so to speak.

Sides, isnt this debate silly? The US and Europe and the developed world are not wholly capitalistic. There's a free market with a varying amount of government involvement and social safety nets. So umm, what country's capitalism are we first going to refer to as the bench mark, and at what time frame that this existed?
 
Do you even know what capitalism is? :crazyeye:

So what would you call the economic systems of the countries in the middle east and africa? too much government regulating what? there is no friggin money to regulate in africa. Foreign investment in what?

Dictatorships?
 
Yeah, sorry about that, didn't realise how old it was. Got it in a link.

Yes, people on the forums. They have access to a computer/Internet therefore would be considered rich by most of the world's population.

Most people on the forums I would say are either kids living with their parents or in college. Hardly...rich, by developed world standards.
 
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