A Solution for the Disadvantaged

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Meh, my father and sister are military, I like them making money just fine. Wastage in Defence is an issue, but my main issue with Australia's budget is really the mis-allocation of expenditure towards middle class welfare, depriving funds from the actual needy vital infrastructure investment (oh, and the pro-carbon bias of tax system). Sorry, I think government expenditure at about 30-40% GDP seems about right.

drawn out mega trillion dollar path we are on now, that isn't producing any results, and running our country into private and public bankruptcy.

[citation needed]

The US is a low-taxing nation. Plenty of room for tax rises to cover the defecit.
 
[citation needed]

http://www.usdebtclock.org/

Sorry, I think government expenditure at about 30-40% GDP seems about right.

For someone who is pragmatic, and looking for the best, scientific results, you sure are forwarding a system that is destined for flaccid economic growth. I would say that with a well educated society it should be around 13-15%. Healthcare, Defense, interstate highways, environmental protection.
 
Yes, I am aware that the United States has public debt.
 
What you are describing here is essentially the English Poor Law version 2.0.

The system is widely regarded to be both somwhat cruel, and counterproductive to it's intended goal.

Yes, your model have a few differences from the workhouses of the 19'th century (mainly a bigger focus on education (the British used to believe in the ennobling qualities of hard labor, which meant the institutions were essentially slave labor camps) as well as the neat flourish of allowing inmates to engage in some heavily regulated forms of commerce), but in it's essential qualities it is the same system.

1. It proscribes that dependents upon the state's welfare be kept in institutions, seperate from the rest of the populace, and lose many of their civil liberties.

2. It assumes that unemployment is a result of vice. If a human is virtuous there will always be gainful employment.


1 is dangerous for a host of reasons, 2 is just plain wrong.

Civil liberties is more than just nice things to enjoy. They are also a safeguard against tyranny and exploitation. We can flee an abusive employer (or relationship). We can call out when someone does us wrong.
In your re-education camps the inmates are at the mercy of whoever runs the camps. The guardians already have authority to limit use of media in the name of combating "vice". What is to prevent them from abusing those powers to shut down dissent within the camps. What kind of mechanism would be in place to prevent a Magdalene Asylum scandal or something similar.
Putting people in camps is also a great way of stigmatizing people and marginalizing them socially. They lose touch with their outside network (that might lead to jobs) and gain a new, but much less useful "network" of campmates (much like a prison sentence can often make a man more criminal). Hell, employers might even discriminate against former inmates, if the populace at large buys into the whole "vice" theory of unemployment.

And then there is the issue with structural unemployment. The model assumes that the able and willing will always be able to support themselves with gainful employment. Is this really true? What are you going to do with a laid off steel mill worker when all new jobs are in the IT sector? What about about a construction worker after a building boom went bust? Are they to be incarcerated due to their rotten luck? Or do the "virtuous" just magically gain skills in whatever field the market demands? We live in a world where the demand of unskilled labor is constantly shrinking. We only need that many street sweepers or McDonalds clerks (unless the Gov't is willing to fund all kinds of "make work schemes" in the name of ensuring full employment). What about economic recessions/depressions, or lopsided trade balances like the game China is playing with the US in order to ensure (near)full employment in their own yard?
 
So then why did you need the citation? :confused:

Were you merely unaware of its magnitude?

Yeah, it's as high as Germany's, approaching Canada's and France's, and close to half of Japan's. So, unexceptional and manageable.

drawn out mega trillion dollar path we are on now, that isn't producing any results, and running our country into private and public bankruptcy.

The quote has three subclauses.
 
I disagree with it. For one thing, it totally fails to differenate between people who are in a temporary rut because they, say, lost a job and need to get a new one, or had the death of a spouse and now have to make adjustments, exc. and people who are going to be on welfare for a long time, like heroin addicts, some high school dropouts, exc.
 
I disagree with it. For one thing, it totally fails to differenate between people who are in a temporary rut because they, say, lost a job and need to get a new one, or had the death of a spouse and now have to make adjustments, exc. and people who are going to be on welfare for a long time, like heroin addicts, some high school dropouts, exc.

Oh wait, wait, I know this, frictional and structural unemployment? I should have paid more attention in econ.
 
I disagree with it. For one thing, it totally fails to differenate between people who are in a temporary rut because they, say, lost a job and need to get a new one, or had the death of a spouse and now have to make adjustments, exc. and people who are going to be on welfare for a long time, like heroin addicts, some high school dropouts, exc.

You shouldn't disagree with it simply because it does not cover caveats that you wish to see addressed. We can address them and incorporate them into the plan. A spouse who suffers a death already qualify for social security, so they are fine, people who are in a temporary rut do not have to go.

I would be willing to add a stipulation that you may leave at any time, regardless of whether you find gainful employment. Again, I am looking to preserve the rights and liberties of these people by not making anything compulsory.

I believe that the three year time frame is enough to deal with drug addiction and high school drop outs. Nothing will put a stop to rehab centers in the outside world. They will have access there too once they are re-matriculated.

Arwon said:
Yeah, it's as high as Germany's, approaching Canada's and France's, and close to half of Japan's. So, unexceptional and manageable.

And what do you think it will look like in 20 years? The outward projections go up, and up, and up. And the monetarists and the Keynesians simply keep back tracking by blithely declaring that the recession was worse, and worse, and worse than originally thought. Even though those numbers aren't changing...
 
You shouldn't disagree with it simply because it does not cover caveats that you wish to see addressed. We can address them and incorporate them into the plan

Fair enough. I disagree with it In its current, unaltered form.

A spouse who suffers a death already qualify for social security, so they are fine,

Actually, social security is for the retired, so that wouldn't apply I don't think. In fact, I'm not sure exactly what would apply, but I know they have to be given at least a little time to get on their feet.

people who are in a temporary rut do not have to go.

OK, there's a start.

I would be willing to add a stipulation that you may leave at any time, regardless of whether you find gainful employment. Again, I am looking to preserve the rights and liberties of these people by not making anything compulsory.

With that stipulation added, I see little really wrong with it, however, I personally don't think they should have to remain in a walled city at all times to receive help, rather I think it would make more sense to simply have classes or whatnot that they have to attend which teaches the stuff they need to know, but they can travel freely when not in class.

I believe that the three year time frame is enough to deal with drug addiction and high school drop outs. Nothing will put a stop to rehab centers in the outside world. They will have access there too once they are re-matriculated.

I would think that 3 years is enough.
 
I think it is difficult to argue otherwise. It is not just urban poor either. We are targeting rural poverty as well. Both subsets are plagued by their own deficient forms of entertainment that draw people away from pursuing more intellectually fulfilling endeavors.
Could you source this? Are you sure it's not simply poor education?

No it is not. This is a farce. Fresh fruits and vegetables are more nutritious and cheaper than going to Bojangles.
Again, I'd like a source.

It is about the integrity of tax payer dollars. It is about ensuring that money designated for basic food stuffs is actually going to healthy, basic, food stuffs.
So where do you draw the line on this? You can't really determine the exact point where a particular foodstuff or a diet in general stops being healthy and basic. Do you really think it'd be better to go with such a monumentally expensive and fruitless investment that would use taxpayer dollars to force the impoverished into a state of deplorable civil liberties than to let them have some goddamn chicken strips every now and then?

Isn't that the idea put forth here? Improving bad environments?
Well, it's certainly a very indirect way to go about it.
 
You know, I think you may have missed something key: if these communities really were well built, with mixed residential/commercial use and green space, and work nearby, you would never be able to find room to put prisoners there, because they would be full of people.

I think if you gave people a chance to view that environment, everyone would want to live there. I certainly would, given certain reservations (an internet connection, reasonable crime rate, not treated like a jailed prisoner).
 
And how are you going to deal with structural unemployment?

I am not talking about transient unemployment here.
I am talking about the kind of unemployment that arises when the demand for labor is smaller than the labor pool. Maybe due to recessions, or due to outsourcing, or perhaps just effectivization and automatization.

Are you going to force employers to take in (or retain) unneeded employees?
Or are you going to have government shell out money for huge FDR'esque boondoggles just to keep no hands idle?
Or are you going to hand the redundant a one way plane ticket? Or put them on a one-way mission to Mars? Or a cyanide pill?
Or are you just going to claim that God makes sure there are gainful employment for all virtuous people like another goddamn prosperity theologist?
 
And what do you think it will look like in 20 years? The outward projections go up, and up, and up. And the monetarists and the Keynesians simply keep back tracking by blithely declaring that the recession was worse, and worse, and worse than originally thought. Even though those numbers aren't changing...

What public debt to GDP ratio is the point at which bankruptcy occurs?
 
I think the UK in the seventies demonstrated how 'urban living communities' or whatever you want to call them failed quite dramaticaly.
 
What you are describing here is essentially the English Poor Law version 2.0.

The system is widely regarded to be both somwhat cruel, and counterproductive to it's intended goal.

Yes, your model have a few differences from the workhouses of the 19'th century (mainly a bigger focus on education (the British used to believe in the ennobling qualities of hard labor, which meant the institutions were essentially slave labor camps) as well as the neat flourish of allowing inmates to engage in some heavily regulated forms of commerce), but in it's essential qualities it is the same system.

1. It proscribes that dependents upon the state's welfare be kept in institutions, seperate from the rest of the populace, and lose many of their civil liberties.

2. It assumes that unemployment is a result of vice. If a human is virtuous there will always be gainful employment.


1 is dangerous for a host of reasons, 2 is just plain wrong.

Civil liberties is more than just nice things to enjoy. They are also a safeguard against tyranny and exploitation. We can flee an abusive employer (or relationship). We can call out when someone does us wrong.
In your re-education camps the inmates are at the mercy of whoever runs the camps. The guardians already have authority to limit use of media in the name of combating "vice". What is to prevent them from abusing those powers to shut down dissent within the camps. What kind of mechanism would be in place to prevent a Magdalene Asylum scandal or something similar.
Putting people in camps is also a great way of stigmatizing people and marginalizing them socially. They lose touch with their outside network (that might lead to jobs) and gain a new, but much less useful "network" of campmates (much like a prison sentence can often make a man more criminal). Hell, employers might even discriminate against former inmates, if the populace at large buys into the whole "vice" theory of unemployment.

And then there is the issue with structural unemployment. The model assumes that the able and willing will always be able to support themselves with gainful employment. Is this really true? What are you going to do with a laid off steel mill worker when all new jobs are in the IT sector? What about about a construction worker after a building boom went bust? Are they to be incarcerated due to their rotten luck? Or do the "virtuous" just magically gain skills in whatever field the market demands? We live in a world where the demand of unskilled labor is constantly shrinking. We only need that many street sweepers or McDonalds clerks (unless the Gov't is willing to fund all kinds of "make work schemes" in the name of ensuring full employment). What about economic recessions/depressions, or lopsided trade balances like the game China is playing with the US in order to ensure (near)full employment in their own yard?
here is approval btw since OP isn't answering
 
Except these are re-education camps promoting freedom, liberty, and capitalism. Not communism. They are not designed to be punitive either. They are not punishment. They are meant to grow the individual, to be warm, inviting, aesthetically pleasing environments to be in. They are not gulags, or broken down along political lines.
The fact that you use "re-education" alongside "freedom" and "liberty" shows that you not do not understand what those two concepts mean.

Your entire idea is not only horribly flawed from both practical and rational points of view but downright monstrous from a moral one, no matter how good the intentions may be. It's the sort of thing a megalomaniacal dictator would implement (and then royally screw up).

Moderator Action: No need to be quite so personal. Please do not tell people they 'do not understand', and 'your entire...[is] the sort of thing a megalomaniacal dictator would implement' isn't really necessary to make your point either.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
 
I don't think America's poor will want to live in your re-education centres.
The American poor who want to learn and succeed will do it anyway which means your cities will be empty.

I think your overemphasising the lack of "innovation" in the American economy. Apple, Microsoft. Google and Facebook are not European or Asian; all built up from the bottom by Americans. Europe doesn't have has many tech-giants like you do.

I think the UK in the seventies demonstrated how 'urban living communities' or whatever you want to call them failed quite dramaticaly.

uhhh....what does this refer too? :O
 
Meanwhile the right leaning board members seek to preserve individual choice and liberty.

You'll have to point out where that happens. It's certainly not obvious around here. :crazyeye:
 
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