[RD] Abortion, once again

[RobAnybody]

Liberals gotta learn in America there's consequences for losing.

The rules are stupid but to change them you need power but ideological purity is better.
Except when it's not.

(Bolding mine) Unfortunately, this is the only "lesson" they seem willing to learn - the one they already believe.

The Democrats passed a federal law guaranteeing the right to an abortion. It was DOA in the Senate because Bob Casey and Joe Manchin wouldn't vote for it.

But please, tell me more about how the problem in the Democratic Party is not enough people like Manchin.

@Lexicus, I'm just frikkin' confused at this point. Above was my initial post that you responded to, where I quoted Zardnaar. You replied about Manchin (someone clearly "not pure") scuttling Dem initiatives. I then echoed Zardnaar's initial point about Ideological Purity being the cause of having to rely on the Manchins of the world, 'cause that's what I assumed (maybe my bad) you were objecting to - that if you got "more Pure" you wouldn't have to rely on the Manchins of the world (which I disagree with - you'll just be a smaller minority).

But now you're saying the Dems don't seek Ideological Purity, which was the whole thing I was echoing in simply agreeing with Zardnaar's post, so... I dunno, maybe we agree? Meaning the Dems shouldn't be so Ideologically Pure & should accept more people who don't 100% "fall in line"? So they (honestly we in this instance) don't *have* to rely on one single Manchin, because there will be 15-20 Manchins & some will support what they/we want?

Is that what you're saying (in which case I agree), or are you saying the Dems should get more Ideologically Pure & kick the Manchins (but, realistically, a lot of other people) to the curb? I'm hoping it's the former, honestly.

Sorry @Zardnaar for dragging your name through this whole quote recap of mine!

 

[Cloud_Strife]

I hate to break it to you but the democrats have never been ideologically pure; they've always been willing to work with the otherside even when they want to actively harm us; that's why so many of us hate them

 

[Zardnaar]

@Lexicus, I'm just frikkin' confused at this point. Above was my initial post that you responded to, where I quoted Zardnaar. You replied about Manchin (someone clearly "not pure") scuttling Dem initiatives. I then echoed Zardnaar's initial point about Ideological Purity being the cause of having to rely on the Manchins of the world, 'cause that's what I assumed (maybe my bad) you were objecting to - that if you got "more Pure" you wouldn't have to rely on the Manchins of the world (which I disagree with - you'll just be a smaller minority).

But now you're saying the Dems don't seek Ideological Purity, which was the whole thing I was echoing in simply agreeing with Zardnaar's post, so... I dunno, maybe we agree? Meaning the Dems shouldn't be so Ideologically Pure & should accept more people who don't 100% "fall in line"? So they (honestly we in this instance) don't *have* to rely on one single Manchin, because there will be 15-20 Manchins & some will support what they/we want?

Is that what you're saying (in which case I agree), or are you saying the Dems should get more Ideologically Pure & kick the Manchins (but, realistically, a lot of other people) to the curb? I'm hoping it's the former, honestly.

Sorry @Zardnaar for dragging your name through this whole quote recap of mine!

I don't mind.

I'm not shocked by this tbh I've been expecting it since Trump appointed 3 judges.

Ideology aside USA isn't a democracy it's a republic with a lot of decentralized power.

Reality is that means this state can have different laws to another state.

Dema are getting hammered on social issues and "wokeism" doesn't really appeal to many people outside of minorities and middle and upper class urban liberals.

That's not generally enough to win an election here let alone USA. The left kinda defeated itself by focusing on social issues vs economic equality.

The right can defeat itself eg Trump and likely BoJo in UK and Scomo in Australia.

Our "left" wing parade of idiots essentially failed as well. It's easier for the right they can get elected do nothing and more or less keep their supporters happy.

That's a problem even in a proportional system.

 

[Zardnaar]

I hate to break it to you but the democrats have never been ideologically pure; they've always been willing to work with the otherside even when they want to actively harm us; that's why so many of us hate them

The extreme left alienates the middle. Lose the middle you lose the election.

Traditionally here when the greens are doing well labour does poorly. The middle panics and flips to the right.

And thats with proportional in a more liberal electorate. One advantage is you avoid the hard right/left assuming power though.

So the big electoral strategy for the left seems to be hope the right screws up and elects a hard right muppet which alienates the middle (Trump, BoJo, Scomo etc).

 

[Cloud_Strife]

Ssm is going to be made illegal in at least 30 states, with 10 of those banning homosexuality, i have no doubt they will also ban being trans, christ they're doing their best already even before they repeal this

The worst case scenario is coming true and i still remember being called an alarmist and absolutist for pointing out that this was coming down the pipeline

Women will have less autonomy than a corpse

 

[Gorbles]

I was just about to say "boy howdy, I sure am glad that minorities were just overreacting". I don't recall - who here was saying that again? Something about dismissing the concerns of others by painting them as "the sky is falling" type of posters?

Because repealing Roe vs. Wade is "the sky is falling" kind of stuff. And if liberals and centrists can't figure that out, then it's nothing to do with the "extreme left" alienating anyone. It's "the middle" alienating the left-of-centre.

Good luck asking for support in the next set of elections, centrists!

 

[Zardnaar]

It's not the end of the world if Roe vs Wade is repealed. It's back to 1972 in some areas.

With everything else going on it's not even a top 5 thing to be concerned about even in the USA. Brutal but looking at those other 5-6 things going on....

If there's enough electoral blowback Dems might win the next few elections. If there isn't sort your crap out.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

If this doesn't move you to realize that Conservatives, regardless of their party, are fundamentally hostile to the rights and existence of anyone who doesn't fit neatly into their incredibly small group of people they tolerate (rich cis, white, heterosexual, Christian men) then it's due to your own personal desire to look the other way

The evidence is out there, it has been for decades, now are you going to listen or just Obfuscate and engage in apologetics

It's not the end of the world if Roe vs Wade is repealed. It's back to 1972 in some areas.

With everything else going on it's not even a top 5 thing to be concerned about even in the USA. Brutal but looking at those other 5-6 things going on....

If there's enough electoral blowback Dems might win the next few elections. If there isn't sort your crap out.

People are going to suffer and die as a direct result of this, your words are hollow

 

[Gorbles]

It's not the end of the world if Roe vs Wade is repealed. It's back to 1972 in some areas.

With everything else going on it's not even a top 5 thing to be concerned about even in the USA. Brutal but looking at those other 5-6 things going on....

As a dude in New Zealand, I don't think it's particularly relevant if you think it's not something to be concerned by. It doesn't affect you. It doesn't affect me. The people it does affect, we should probably at least do the basic service of listening to.

If you can't do that, then what's the point of saying anything?

 

[Zardnaar]

If this doesn't move you to realize that Conservatives, regardless of their party, are fundamentally hostile to the rights and existence of anyone who doesn't fit neatly into their incredibly small group of people they tolerate (rich cis, white, heterosexual, Christian men) then it's due to your own personal desire to look the other way

The evidence is out there, it has been for decades, now are you going to listen or just Obfuscate and engage in apologetics

No I'm well aware if it. I don't care because I'm more focused in winning to avoid getting stuck in situations like this to begin with.

"Wokeism" is basically counter productive and sometimes life's a poo sandwich. Sometimes you have to kick the can down the road and focus on retention vs advancing.

America is changing but not as fast as what some liberals want.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

Its not hyperbole to say that even segregation is back on the books

 

[Cloud_Strife]

No I'm well aware if it. I don't care

Yeah, we know.

Lmao, basic bodily autonomy is being rescinded and you're telling me to stay calm

 

[Zardnaar]

As a dude in New Zealand, I don't think it's particularly relevant if you think it's not something to be concerned by. It doesn't affect you. It doesn't affect me. The people it does affect, we should probably at least do the basic service of listening to.

If you can't do that, then what's the point of saying anything?

It's a worldwide problem though. The conservatives here play around with the culture war but can't go to far down that road so they push tax cuts and things like that.

The reason the do it in places like USA and UK is because it works. And then some clown gets elected and turfed out but it's to late by then the damage is done.

 

[Zardnaar]

Yeah, we know.

Lmao, basic bodily autonomy is being rescinded and you're telling me to stay calm

No I'm not I'm telling you your rhetoric and from similar minded people alienates people. The culture wars Essentially a distraction/trap but because you're an ideologue you're blind to it or don't care because you're "right".

Morality is subjective that's not fake news. Power and attaining power matter followed by what you do with it.

The GoPs just better at winning that power while F'ing everything up once they win it.

In a democracy or republic it's a numbers game. LGBTQ make up 4-5%. Minorities are exactly that.

USA it's made worse due to EC so it becomes a numbers game in the right places.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

No I'm not I'm telling you your rhetoric and from similar minded people alienates people. The culture wars Essentially a distraction/trap but because you're an ideologue you're blind to it or don't care because you're "right".

Morality is subjective that's not fake news. Power and attaining power matter followed by what you do with it.

The GoPs just better at winning that power while F'ing everything up once they win it.

In a democracy or republic it's a numbers game. LGBTQ make up 4-5%. Minorities are exactly that.

USA it's made worse due to EC so it becomes a numbers game in the right places.

Read the room man

 

[Zardnaar]

Read the room man

Face reality.

The "game" isn't a fair game but the rules are clear (constitution, electoral college) and you can't change the rules.

Feel free to ragevand complain about said rules. There's nothing wrong with what you want but you're probably babout 10-20 years away from that point.

More you push the more the push back. Political physics 101.

Just for the record if I was American I would vote Democratic. They're a bit rubbish but the GoPs infinitely worse.

Path to power in USA is through older whiter voters.

Context I've been watching MSNBC a d CNN for coverage. Lots of opinion but what's legal.....

 

[Cloud_Strife]

The reality is that you are being blithe about the majority of people with america having their rights and ability to live without being discriminated against by the state for who they are rescinded

 

[Gorbles]

It's a worldwide problem though. The conservatives here play around with the culture war but can't go to far down that road so they push tax cuts and things like that.

The reason the do it in places like USA and UK is because it works. And then some clown gets elected and turfed out but it's to late by then the damage is done.

It's a worldwide problem, and yet the specifics are relevant to different countries in different ways.

You are, basically, wandering into a thread about reproductive rights and the like in the US and telling people to "deal with it". This isn't effective communication. You are, ironically, alienating the people you profess to support.

The damage has been done, like you said. But nobody here has a time machine. Nobody has your privilege of apparently being able to fend things off before they happen. What's important is what's happening now, and how it affects people in the US and their livelihoods. If you can't manage that without resorting to your usual "the left just alienates people" spiel, you are contributing less than nothing to the discourse.

 

[Zardnaar]

It's a worldwide problem, and yet the specifics are relevant to different countries in different ways.

You are, basically, wandering into a thread about reproductive rights and the like in the US and telling people to "deal with it". This isn't effective communication. You are, ironically, alienating the people you profess to support.

The damage has been done, like you said. But nobody here has a time machine. Nobody has your privilege of apparently being able to fend things off before they happen. What's important is what's happening now, and how it affects people in the US and their livelihoods. If you can't manage that without resorting to your usual "the left just alienates people" spiel, you are contributing less than nothing to the discourse.

There's a reason there. If the leak is accurate Rie Vs Wade is gone burger. Now what?

Its not the end of the world it's not the end of the world and you can do a new roe vs Wade further down the line.

Neither of us can do anything about it as iirc you're in the UK. You need to figure out how to win there as well although BoJo might pull that off for you.

It's a loss it's not the end of the war or the world. Posting on CFC won't change that one way or the other da?

 

[Gorbles]

Its not the end of the world it's not the end of the world and you can do a new roe vs Wade further down the line.

It's the end of the world for the people this affects, and will cause harm (and death) to.

And if you think a new Roe vs. Wade can just be done "further down the line", you really don't know anything about US politics. There's a reason the whole SCOTUS thing has been scrutinised so heavily over the past few years. They're lifetime appointments.

Like I said: telling people to "deal with it" (or words to that effect, including "face reality") is not helpful advice. You are not helping by saying it. Sure, we can't change anything legally in the US, either of us, but we both participate in this thread where US posters also post. So, maybe try less alienation, and a bit more support? See how that works out for you.