Adolf Hitler

[Lone Wolf]

My point originally was that blaming Stalin alone personally for everything that happened isn't correct.

A leader always shares a part of responsibility for actions of his subordinates.

Actually, he said differently. He asked why palestinians must suffer when it was Europe who committed holocaust thus Europe should give land to them not palestine.

He varies the extremity of his position. Sometimes he is willing to accept Holocaust as likely, sometimes he outright denies it.

How does it feel to live in the least liked country on earth?

I don't like our current government, yet I don't think Russia is the least liked on earth. USA is certainly a competition for that dubious honour here, and don't forget stuff like North Korea or Myanmar.

 

[cr0ws]

Actually, he said differently. He asked why palestinians must suffer when it was Europe who committed holocaust thus Europe should give land to them not palestine. Something like that.

I fully agree with Mr. Ahmadinejad and many other people who have to have israel as a neighbor. I think all the zionist jews that immigrated to the region after WW2 should be sent back to russia, europe and USA. They've brought the region nothing but misery,terror and bloodspill.

 

[Talin2009]

A leader always shares a part of responsibility for actions of his subordinates.

Of course. Still whole dispute started about whether to call him mass-murderer or not.

 

[Lone Wolf]

I fully agree with Mr. Ahmadinejad and many other people who have to have israel as a neighbor.

Regardless of the legality of forming Israel in the first place, sending all Jews to Europe now is little different then sending all Palestinian Arabs back to Arabian Peninsula.

Still whole dispute started about whether to call him mass-murderer or not.

He shares the responsibility, so why not?

 

[Talin2009]

He shares the responsibility, so why not?

I do not value things that happened in 1937-38 as mass murders. There were repressions and victims, some trials were unjust, some not, since there were in fact many spies. Still, those things do not count as mass-murders.

And it's totally different from Hitler and Mao both in scale of losses, in intentions of and methods used.

p.s. There is difference between dictatorship and mass murders.

 

[Cozart]

I fully agree with Mr. Ahmadinejad and many other people who have to have israel as a neighbor. I think all the zionist jews that immigrated to the region after WW2 should be sent back to russia, europe and USA. They've brought the region nothing but misery,terror and bloodspill.

Does that mean we can send the non-Jewish or non-Christians back to their areas of origin. Oh wait, that means Jewish, Christians, and Islamic peoples all have to live together in the same area.

Since most of the major religions are mono-theistic(Jewish, Christians, Islam) doesn't that mean we all worship the same god, just under a different name. Sure the stories may be different, but deep down it's all the same.

 

[Lone Wolf]

I do not value things that happened in 1937-38 as mass murders. There were repressions and victims, some trials were unjust, some not, since there were in fact many spies. Still, those things do not count as mass-murders.

Far less spies then those who were condemned on charges of spying. Also, I have the impression that Stalin is called a mass-murderer for the hunger during his reign (I wonder why Kazakhstan doesn't complain about forced tying of kazakhs to the land, that leaded to quite many deaths), then for the repressions, which is a different topic entirely.

 

[Sephi]

This is amusing and very insulting, You have got to be kidding my friend, surely you did not pick up a "official brochure" at the kremlin in red square regarding the official count of deaths resulting from communist oppression?

The Gulag was the government agency that administered the penal labor camps of the Soviet Union. The term is infamous for its association with remote places where prisoners were kept and whom many disappeared. The camps housed all types of criminals, but are well known as mechanisms for repressing political opposition and for holding political prisoners. And everyone knows well how largely popular communist purges were during that time.

There were at least 476 separate camps, some of them comprising hundreds, even thousands of camp units.The most infamous complexes were those at arctic or subarctic regions. Today's major industrial cities of the Russian Arctic such as Norilsk, Vorkuta, Kolyma and Magadan, were camps originally built by prisoners and run by ex-prisoners. It was the branch of the State Security that operated the penal system of forced labour camps and associated detention and transit camps and prisons. This makes the numbers of slaves US exploited pre-civil war insignificant compared to what was going on in the USSR, yet the slave era in USA somehow overshadows that in our "history" books.

61,911,000 democides in the USSR 1917-87, of which 51,755,000 occurred during the Stalin years. This divides up into:

* 1923-29: 2,200,000 (plus 1M non-democidal famine deaths)
* 1929-39: 15,785,000 (plus 2M non-democidal famine)
* 1939-45: 18,157,000
* 1946-54: 15,613,000 (plus 333,000 non-democidal famine)
* TOTAL: 51,755,000 democides and 3,333,000 non-demo. famine



I can clearly understand why in russia today there is no respect for authority and law and why human life has such a low price. Maybe if USA decided to starve to death all their african slaves like russians did with theirs they wouldn't have the problem of compensating their families these days.

"The death of a single person is a tragedy, the deaths of a million is just a statistic." J. Stalin AKA Iosif Vissarionovich Dzhugashvili

these numbers are some really stupid cold war propaganda. Stupid because it is very easy to see they are forged.

 

[Talin2009]

Far less spies then those who were condemned on charges of spying. Also, I have the impression that Stalin is called a mass-murderer for the hunger during his reign (I wonder why Kazakhstan doesn't complain about forced tying of kazakhs to the land, that leaded to quite many deaths), then for the repressions, which is a different topic entirely.

In percentage not that many were condemned to death, many were freed in 1939. My grandfather, for example, was sentenced to 10 years camps in 37, but year and half after was found out he was falsely charged and he was freed.

Yes, it was harsh time but it wasnt that horrific as painted nowadays and amount of lies and propaganda pisses me off.

 

[2ndimpression]

There have been many inhuman and immoral acts carried out many countries, governments and individuals. Whether this Germany, USA, Russia, Britain or many other places around the world, people should learn about their history, even if it is nothing to be proud of.

I am British, a country that had some of the first Prisoner of war camps during the Napoleonic Wars. In the Boer war around 1900, we had concentration camps where over 26,000 women and children were to perish. We also have the British Empire, the East India company, the slave trade etc etc.

History is usually written by the victor, and when you learn about the history of your country in your country it is always portrayed in a better light than the truth.

Any 'major player' all throughout history, usually has a long list of crimes against humanity. Unfortunatley that is how civilisation got to where it is today and I doubt that is going to change any time soon.

 

[NBAfan]

There have been many inhuman and immoral acts carried out many countries, governments and individuals. Whether this Germany, USA, Russia, Britain or many other places around the world, people should learn about their history, even if it is nothing to be proud of.

I am British, a country that had some of the first Prisoner of war camps during the Napoleonic Wars. In the Boer war around 1900, we had concentration camps where over 26,000 women and children were to perish. We also have the British Empire, the East India company, the slave trade etc etc.

History is usually written by the victor, and when you learn about the history of your country in your country it is always portrayed in a better light than the truth.

Any 'major player' all throughout history, usually has a long list of crimes against humanity. Unfortunatley that is how civilisation got to where it is today and I doubt that is going to change any time soon.

Well said, after all is there not a saying "Those do not know their history are doomed to repeat it"?

 

[cr0ws]

In percentage not that many were condemned to death, many were freed in 1939. My grandfather, for example, was sentenced to 10 years camps in 37, but year and half after was found out he was falsely charged and he was freed.

Yes, it was harsh time but it wasnt that horrific as painted nowadays and amount of lies and propaganda pisses me off.

Most Gulag inmates were not political prisoners, although the political prisoner population was always significant. People could be imprisoned in a Gulag camp for "crimes" such as unexcused absences from work, petty theft, or anti-government jokes. About half of the political prisoners were sent to Gulag prison camps without trial; official data suggests that there were more than 2.6 million imprisonment sentences in cases investigated by the secret police, 1921-1953. While the Gulag was radically reduced in size following Stalin’s death in 1953, political prisoners continued to exist in the Soviet Union right up to the Gorbachev era.

I personally read a document of accusation of russian couple's who's uncle was sent to siberia and never made it out alive, it was a sad joke. If you're going to sit there and paint the USSR as some kind of a misunderstood focus of other people's hatred you're talking to the wrong person. You can feed this crap to the average gullible american or brazilian but then again, they're already starting to get a good taste of the same disease that was rampant throughout Russia in their own countries! We'll see how it all ends in 10 years. And like I said, those who fail to learn from history are forced to relive it.

This is why I support mass arming of the populace, it should be your national duty as a loyal citizen to keep arms in your home. Sure gun crime rates increase but it's a small price to pay considering that dictator's careers are shortened should they cross that fine line. Can you recall when's the last time USA had a dictator of such scale as Stalin or Hitler?

 

[Talin2009]

Most Gulag inmates were not political prisoners, although the political prisoner population was always significant. People could be imprisoned in a Gulag camp for "crimes" such as unexcused absences from work, petty theft, or anti-government jokes. About half of the political prisoners were sent to Gulag prison camps without trial; official data suggests that there were more than 2.6 million imprisonment sentences in cases investigated by the secret police, 1921-1953. While the Gulag was radically reduced in size following Stalin’s death in 1953, political prisoners continued to exist in the Soviet Union right up to the Gorbachev era.

I personally read a document of accusation of russian couple's who's uncle was sent to siberia and never made it out alive, it was a sad joke. If you're going to sit there and paint the USSR as some kind of a misunderstood focus of other people's hatred you're talking to the wrong person. You can feed this crap to the average gullible american or brazilian but then again, they're already starting to get a good taste of the same disease that was rampant throughout Russia in their own countries! We'll see how it all ends in 10 years. And like I said, those who fail to learn from history are forced to relive it.

This is why I support mass arming of the populace, it should be your national duty as a loyal citizen to keep arms in your home. Sure gun crime rates increase but it's a small price to pay considering that dictator's careers are shortened should they cross that fine line. Can you recall when's the last time USA had a dictator of such scale as Stalin or Hitler?

At least we agreed here that 800,000,000 innocents were not shot by Stalin and Beria personally

Sentence about arming populace and how dictators will be afraid of their life made me smile.

 

[cr0ws]

At least we agreed here that 800,000,000 innocents were not shot by Stalin and Beria personally

Sentence about arming populace and how dictators will be afraid of their life made me smile.

Really? And say if perhaps 3/5 of russians were armed back in the USSR days, do you think Stalin & friends would have lived to die a natural death? Even if it was only with ice picks <---pun pun pun! I highly doubt it! Like I said, when's the last time USA had a dictator of such magnitude? Dictators love meek and defenseless sheeple , cause you can tread on them as you like without consequence!

 

[The_J]

I think we can stop this discussion - I've said I won't add him to my mod because that would make my mod illegal in Germany (at one point I removed nazi swastikas from couple units as well).

As far as i know, only the swastikas and other nazi symbols are illegal, Hitler itself is not.

 

[Talin2009]

Really? And say if perhaps 3/5 of russians were armed back in the USSR days, do you think Stalin & friends would have lived to die a natural death? Even if it was only with ice picks <---pun pun pun! I highly doubt it! Like I said, when's the last time USA had a dictator of such magnitude? Dictators love meek and defenseless sheeple , cause you can tread on them as you like without consequence!

*sigh*

You don't understand what tasks police and regular army serve, do you?

FYI regions who suffered most during civil war and terror in 1920s were cossack populated regions, where population was ARMED.

Try to aim gun at policeman and tell him you don't like your government or that he violates your civil rights and see what happens next.

 

[Afforess]

Try to aim gun at policeman and tell him you don't like your government or that he violates your civil rights and see what happens next.

A Firefight?

The outcome is still better than if the person had no gun, and said that.

Regardless, Crows is right.

Always exercise your political power with these four boxes, in this order:

Vote, Soap, Jury, Ammo.

 

[cr0ws]

*sigh*

You don't understand what tasks police and regular army serve, do you?

FYI regions who suffered most during civil war and terror in 1920s were cossack populated regions, where population was ARMED.

Try to aim gun at policeman and tell him you don't like your government or that he violates your civil rights and see what happens next.

Sure, police are there to look after and protect influential people while keeping the rest suppressed. They are the "lawful occupational forces". As far as the army , depends on if your government is occupied by a foreign entity or not, in which case the army will serve much like the police...in addition to being used as pawns for the interests of the foreign establishment.

Oh and if I ever find myself aiming my weapon at a cop I will have valid reason to and I'll have no regrets!

 

[os79]

How does it feel to live in the least liked and trusted country on earth? Even communist China and Chechnya have more respect.

Treading on a thin ice of personal attack. Please reconsider this question that is veiling something else potentially.

 

[os79]

Ouch!
My above post is tad outdated but still...

However, come on, folks. I'm completely lost now. The debate was on viability of using Hitler as a LeaderHeda. Now it is about Russia and Stalin?

You know we can easily debate Genghis Khan who was famous for massacring cities' citizens if they resisted his army.

We can debate Caesar who ruthlessly brought under Roman's rule even before it turned into an empire in name.

We can debate Napoleon's quest to conquer an entire European continent. And he was a "civilized" French to boot!

My point here:
Every country, with United States at present, is guilty of treading on other people's rights as we understand them today. Remember, we USA citizens used to expand into the lands owned by Native Americans and ruthlessly push them further and further into poorer and poorer lands. We, the prime example of democracy of this age, is culpable for devastating wars in Vietnam, Latin America, and Middle East today. So we can't really debate the past horrors of historical figures without realizing horrors of this glorious land of free and brave!