Africa

Eran of Arcadia said:
I haven't heard anything about it. What news sources? And is it the US government, private citizens, or US-run arms companies? Just wondering.

http://www.economist.com/world/africa/displaystory.cfm?story_id=7041247

By contrast, Mogadishu's secular warlords look busted. They formed a self-proclaimed Alliance for the Restoration of Peace and Counter-Terrorism earlier this year, with the aim of turning back the Islamists' influence and catching one or two al-Qaeda suspects who might have been hiding in Mogadishu. That was enough to win them the backing of the CIA, which, say several sources, funnelled money to them, with disastrous results. “Everyone was aghast at what the Americans were doing,” says a European diplomat. Some in the State Department and the CIA privately bemoan what they see as both the half-heartedness of the operation and a failure to foresee its messy results. An American diplomat in Nairobi responsible for overseeing Somali politics was removed from his post for speaking out. Some of his dissenting reports did not, apparently, reach Washington.

One result is that the United States is more unpopular than ever in Mogadishu. American flags are being burned even in quieter parts of the city; anti-American rhetoric is finding a wider audience. Memories have been rekindled of 1993, when 18 American peacekeepers were killed in Mogadishu after the downing of two helicopters and several hundred Somalis were killed, mostly by the Americans, during the rescue attempt.

America has also been widely blamed, both inside Somalia and among exile groups and diplomats in nearby countries, for egging on the warlords who have been accused of sparking the gun battles that have flared on and off in northern Mogadishu for the past month. Some 350 fighters and civilians have been killed, and at least 2,000 wounded. One of the two hospitals in Mogadishu being run by the International Committee of the Red Cross, which is struggling to bring in medical supplies, has been taken over by a warlord's militia.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/2006051...TiQLIUD;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl

NAIROBI (AFP) - Covert United States support for an alliance of Somali warlords now fighting Islamic militias for control of Mogadishu may violate a 14-year-old
United Nations arms embargo, diplomats said.

As the two factions clashed for a fifth straight day on the streets of the capital, provoking international concern about rising violence, the diplomats said Washington's backing of the warlord alliance was legally questionable.

The comments came a day after a panel of experts monitoring the 1992 arms embargo on Somalia told the UN Security Council it was investigating clandestine "financial support" to the alliance from an unnamed country.

Washington has not publicly confirmed its support for the Alliance for the Restoration of Peace and Counter-Terrorism (ARPCT) but US officials and informed Somali sources have told AFP the group has received US money.

The cash, amounting to several hundred thousand dollars, was delivered by former US military and intelligence officials on at least two occasions to Mogadishu warlords in January and February, sources in Somalia told AFP.

The ARPCT was formed shortly after the second injection of US funds, in a bid to curb the growing influence of Mogadishu's 11 Islamic courts. Some believe the courts are protecting Muslim extremists, including Al-Qaeda operatives.

Although US officials say Washington has not supplied the warlord alliance with weapons or military equipment, diplomats said the money could be a breach of the embargo.

"Money is fungible (mutually interchangeable)," one Nairobi-based diplomat told AFP. "It may not be weapons coming in by ship or truck but if the cash is going to buy military equipment that would be a violation."

"It's all about how the money is used and the intent of the donor," said a second. "Funding the alliance was always a risk for stability but it may have been illegal."

The US program is controversial -- not least because of Washington's disastrous military intervention in Somalia in the early 1990s -- and Somalia's fledgling and largely powerless transition government has complained about it.

The government, which argues the US support is fuelling divisions, has long sought the lifting of the arms embargo. But it wants it removed so it can build up its own security forces.

The Security Council has several times rejected the government's request.

The embargo was imposed shortly after Somalia descended into anarchy with the 1991 ousting of strongman Mohamed Siad Barre. But it has been widely ignored by many countries seeking to back competing warlords in the country.

In its report to the Security Council, the UN monitoring group said "a widening circle of states are providing arms and military-related support to Somalia in violation of the arms embargo".

The panel identified six nations -- Djibouti, Eritrea, Ethiopia, Italy, Saudi Arabia and Yemen -- believed to have violated the embargo since December 2005 but made pointed reference to "clandestine" involvement by another country.

"The Monitoring Group was informed that during January and February 2006, and at other times not specified ... financial support was being provided to help organize and structure a militia force created to counter the threat posed by the growing militant fundamentalist movement in central and southern Somalia," it said.

"The Monitoring Group did not specify third-country involvement because at the time of the writing of the present report it had not completed its investigation," it said.

Although the panel did not name the country, the timing of the support detailed in the report coincides with the deliveries of US funds mentioned to AFP by Somali sources.

The US embassy in Nairobi, which US officials say is coordinating the covert support for the warlord alliance, declined to comment and referred questions to Washington.

Last week, the US State Department acknowledged the United States was working with "responsible individuals" in Somalia to prevent "terror taking root in the Horn of Africa" but declined to specify who its partners were.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060605...42QLIUD;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl

John Prendergast, who monitors Somalia for the think-tank International Crisis Group, said he learned during meetings with alliance members in Somalia that the CIA was financing the warlords with cash payments.

Prendergast estimated that CIA-operated flights into Somalia have been bringing in $100,000 to $150,000 per month for the warlords. The flights remain in Somalia for the day, he said, so that U.S. agents can confer with their allies.

The Bush administration has maintained a silence over allegations in recent months of a U.S. proxy war against Islamist radicalism in the country.

Pentagon spokesman Navy Lt. Commander Joe Carpenter reiterated the administration's position that the United States stands ready to "disrupt the efforts of terrorists wherever they may be active."

SECRET SUPPORT

Claims of clandestine U.S. support for secular warlords who call themselves the "Alliance for the Restoration of Peace and Counter-Terrorism" have been aired by Somali President Abdullahi Yusuf and independent analysts.

A
United Nations team charged with monitoring a U.N. arms embargo against Somalia has also said it is investigating an unnamed country's clandestine support for the warlords alliance as a possible violation of the weapons ban.

The former intelligence officials said the operation was controlled by the Pentagon through U.S. Central Command's Combined Joint Task Force for the Horn of Africa, a counterterrorism mission based in neighboring Djibouti established after the September 11, 2001 attacks.

On Monday, after months of fighting that has killed around 350 people, the Islamic militia claimed control of Mogadishu and a warlord militiaman said his coalition's leaders were fleeing the capital.

U.S. intelligence has produced no conclusive evidence of an active al Qaeda presence in Somalia, experts said. But there have been reports of al Qaeda members in the country, including suspects in the 1998 U.S. embassy bombings in East Africa.

"The Pentagon, and now the U.S. government as a whole, is convinced these are elements for establishing a religious-based government like the Taliban, that could be exploited by al Qaeda," said a former intelligence official knowledgeable about U.S. courterterrorism activities.

The CIA has given its warlord allies surveillance equipment for tracking al Qaeda suspects and appeared to view the warlords as a counter to the influence of Afghanistan-trained Islamist militia leader Aden Hashi Aryo, Prendergast said.

"By circumventing the new government and going straight to individual warlords, the U.S. is perpetuating and even deepening Somalia's fundamental problems, and compromising long-term efforts to combat extremism," Prendergast said.

Somalia, a country of 10 million people, has had no effective central authority since 1991 when warlords overthrew military dictator Mohamed Siad Barre. The central government is based temporarily in the town of Baidoa and has been unable to control events in Mogadishu.

Americans have bad memories of U.S. involvement in Somalia in 1993, when 18 U.S. soldiers were killed and 79 injured in a battle with guerrillas loyal to warlord Mohamed Farrah Aidid after entering the country to support a relief effort.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/08/world/africa/08intel.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

Among those who have criticized the C.I.A. operation as short-sighted have been senior Foreign Service officers at the United States Embassy in Nairobi. Earlier this year, Leslie Rowe, the embassy's second-ranking official, signed off on a cable back to State Department headquarters that detailed grave concerns throughout the region about American efforts in Somalia, according to several people with knowledge of the report.

Around that time, the State Department's political officer for Somalia, Michael Zorick, who had been based in Nairobi, was reassigned to Chad after he sent a cable to Washington criticizing Washington's policy of paying Somali warlords.

One American government official who traveled to Nairobi this year said officials from various government agencies working in Somalia had expressed concern that American activities in the country were not being carried out in the context of a broader policy.

"They were fully aware that they were doing so without any strategic framework," the official said. "And they realized that there might be negative implications to what they are doing."

The details of the American effort in Somalia are classified, and American officials from several different agencies agreed to discuss them only after being assured of anonymity. The officials included supporters of the C.I.A.-led effort as well as critics. A C.I.A. spokesman declined to comment, as did a spokesman for the American Embassy in Kenya.

Asked about the complaints made by embassy officials in Kenya, Thomas Casey, a State Department spokesman, said: "We're not going to discuss any internal policy discussions. The secretary certainly encourages individuals in the policy making process to express their views and opinions."

Several news organizations have reported on the American payments to the Somali warlords. Reuters and Newsweek were the first to report about Mr. Zorick's cable and reassignment to Chad. The extent and location of the C.I.A.'s efforts, and the extent of the internal dissent about these activities, have not been previously disclosed.

Some Africa experts contend that the United States has lost its focus on how to deal with the larger threat of terrorism in East Africa by putting a premium on its effort to capture or kill a small number of high-level suspects.

Indeed, some of the experts point to the American effort to finance the warlords as one of the factors that led to the resurgence of Islamic militias in the country. They argue that American support for secular warlords, who joined together under the banner of the Alliance for the Restoration of Peace and Counterterrorism, may have helped to unnerve the Islamic militias and prompted them to launch pre-emptive strikes. The Islamic militias have been routing the warlords, and on Monday they claimed to have taken control of most of the Somali capital.

"This has blown up in our face, frankly," said John Prendergast of the International Crisis Group, a nonprofit research organization with extensive field experience in Somalia.

"We've strengthened the hand of the people whose presence we were worried most about," said Mr. Prendergast, who worked on Africa policy at the National Security Council and State Department during the Clinton administration.

The American activities in Somalia have been approved by top officials in Washington and were reaffirmed during a National Security Council meeting about Somalia in March, according to people familiar with the meeting. During the March meeting, at a time of fierce fighting in and around Mogadishu, a decision was made to make counterterrorism the top policy priority for Somalia.


Porter J. Goss, who recently resigned as C.I.A. director, traveled to Kenya this year and met with case officers in the Nairobi station, according to one intelligence official. It is not clear whether the payments to Somali warlords were discussed during Mr. Goss's trip.

The American ambassador in Kenya, William M. Bellamy, has disputed assertions that Washington is to blame for the surge in violence in Somalia. And some government officials this week defended the American counterterrorism efforts in the country.

"You've got to find and nullify enemy leadership," one senior Bush administration official said. "We are going to support any viable political actor that we think will help us with counterterrorism."

In May, the United Nations Security Council issued a report detailing the competing efforts of several nations, including Ethiopia and Eritrea, to provide Somali militias and the transitional Somali government with money and arms — activities the report said violated the international arms embargo on Somalia.

"Arms, military matériel and financial support continue to flow like a river to these various actors," the report said.

The United Nations report also cited what it called clandestine support for a so-called antiterrorist coalition, in what appeared to be a reference to the American policy. Somalia's interim president, Abdullahi Yusuf, first criticized American support for Mogadishu's warlords in early May during a trip to Sweden.

"We really oppose American aid that goes outside the government," he said, arguing that the best way to hunt members of Al Qaeda in Somalia was to strengthen the country's government.


Senior American officials indicated this week that the United States might now be willing to hold discussions with the Islamic militias, known as the Islamic Courts Union. President Bush said Tuesday that the first priority for the United States was to keep Somalia from becoming a safe haven for terrorists.

The American payments to the warlords have been intended at least in part to help gain the capture of a number of suspected Qaeda operatives who are believed responsible for a number of deadly attacks throughout East Africa.

Since the 1998 bombings of the United States Embassies in Kenya and Tanzania, American officials have been tracking a Qaeda cell whose members are believed to move freely between Somalia, Kenya, Ethiopia, and parts of the Middle East.

Shortly after an attack on a hotel in Mombasa, Kenya, and the failed attempt to shoot down a plane bound for Israel that took off from the Mombasa airport, both in November 2002, the United States began informally reaching out to the Somali clans in the hopes that local forces might provide intelligence about suspected members of Al Qaeda in Somalia.

This approach has brought occasional successes. According to an International Crisis Group report, militiamen loyal to warlord Mohammed Deere, a powerful figure in Mogadishu, caught a suspected Qaeda operative, Suleiman Abdalla Salim Hemed, in April 2003 and turned him over to American officials.

According to Mr. Prendergast, who has met frequently with Somali clan leaders, the C.I.A. over the past year has increased its payments to the militias in the hopes of putting pressure on Al Qaeda.

The operation, while blessed by officials in Washington, did not seem to be closely coordinated among various American national security agencies, he said.

"I've talked to people inside the Defense Department and State Department who said that this was not a comprehensive policy," he said. "It was being conducted in a vacuum, and they were largely shut out."


Even the Somali interim president in exile, who by the war only maintains his position by virtue of support from the West is criticising America for intefering.

And before people say, war on terror, blah, blah, blah, the Islamists in Somalia don't seem to be like the Taliban. Despite their anti-US stance (and who can blame them since the US funded their enemies), they are already reaching out to the West, denying any links to al-Queda. It does seem likely they want to implement sharia law though. Let's hope America doesn't make a Ho Chi Minh style mistake again.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/2006060...F6QLIUD;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl

Yet the chairman of Mogadishu's 11 Islamic courts denied any links to terrorism or radical anti-western Islam in an open letter to diplomats that said the movement was not political and interested only in peace.

"We share no objectives, goals or methods with groups that sponsor or support terrorism," Sheikh Sharif Sheikh Ahmed said in the letter delivered to the diplomatic corps in the Kenyan capital on Tuesday.

A day earlier, Islamist militia claimed victory in the battle for Mogadishu over the ARPCT, which accuses the courts of harboring terrorists, including Al-Qaeda members. This view is shared by US intelligence officials.

The letter, a copy of which was read to AFP by a senior Islamist official, rejects those accusations and seeks to allay US fears that Somalia may become a new
Afghanistan under an African version of the Taliban militia.

"We wanted to inform the United States that our only agenda is to ensure peace and order in Mogadishu," the official said. "If we achieve that, it would be easy to spread it across Somalia."

US
President George W. Bush said Tuesday he was concerned about the situation in Mogadishu and would ensure that Somalia did not become a haven for terrorists.

On Wednesday, Washington reacted cautiously to Ahmed's letter, with the State Department saying there appeared to be splits in the Islamist ranks.

"There are a number of different voices in the group," spokesman Sean McCormack told reporters, adding that the United States was "not going to pass judgment at this point about the precise nature of this group."

But Ahmed himself appeared torn, telling a pan-Arabic daily he may quit his post and warning that US intervention would meet disaster similar to the one in 1993 that left 18 US soldiers and 300 Somalis dead.

"If US forces intervene directly against us in Mogadishu, then we are ready to teach them a lesson they will never forget and repeat their defeat in 1993," he said.



On the bright side of things, the US actions in Somalia seemed to have forced the hands of the Islamic side and hopefully Somalia will get its first stable government for 15 years.

But despite my criticism of America I do believe that Europeans are pretty guilty too (diamond trade...). And so is China. So, I guess no region/country can be said to be innocent here. Everyone is guilty. Still this latest American action is probably the most blatant Western interference in a long-going war for a long time.

In the end though, Africa has got to sort itself out. It's gotta to learn to take responsibility. It needs some decent leaders who actually have a vision besides, "extort as much money as possible". It doesn't matter if they are dictators. That and they need to stand up and embarass the outside world enough to get them to crack down on them funding the wars.
 
Uiler said:
It is common knowledge that the US has been funding warlords in Somalia which is the specific example I refered to. It's been all over the news lately. Where have you been? Under a rock?
I didn't talk about specific examples. We weren't talking about all of Somalia, we were talking about the whole of Africa.

Here's a pie chart of sales to Africa by region.

 
rmsharpe said:
I didn't talk about specific examples. We weren't talking about all of Somalia, we were talking about the whole of Africa.

Here's a pie chart of sales to Africa by region.


Well, *I* was referring to Somalia wrt America.

Take for example the diamond trade or America's current funding of the Somali warlords.

The Europe stats look pretty realistic. From what I've heard, Europe is pretty bad with respect to the interference thing, esp. Russia. I will agree with you - in Africa, Europe is much worse than America.
 
Uiler said:
The Europe stats look pretty realistic. From what I've heard, Europe is pretty bad with respect to the interference thing, esp. Russia. I will agree with you - in Africa, Europe is much worse than America.
Which was my impression of how we consistently have been dealing with "the West" here. It's not a US vs. Europe topic really.

Great posts BTW Uiler!:goodjob:
 
rmsharpe said:
How many people leave Africa to live in the West? How many people leave the West to live in Africa?
You wan't to do this through category specific comparisons or not?

How many Africans go to the West permanently and end up working menial jobs? Quite a few. How many Westerners do the same with regards to Africa? None, or next to.

How many technical specialists, consultants and aid workers from Africa descend upon Europe for a set period of time, but long enough to get in peoples' faces and pick up their paycheck (and they will be making regular visits to check things out). Almost nil. How many Europeans go the other way? A lot.

On balance, the score might be pretty even, just couting the numbers.

I.e., I think these two situations need to be understood together as they tend to give the shape of the assymetrical relationship between Africa and the West. As for the actual numbers, I have no real idea, except that the exchange in quantitative terms is more even if seen this way, than if you just focus on permanent imigrants trying to improve their quality of life.
 
Bright day
Well as others have said the sum is negative.

But I would like to say one thing. For biggest part Europeans did not destroy native structures, they supressed them- which only led to their rebound after the pressure ceased- similar to East Europe.
 
Well I'm pretty sure the truth lies in the middle. Africa was not a golden paradise before the Europeans came, as people pointed out ethnic wars were quite frequent. Now the Europeans brought some good things, brought some bad things, but in the end they were not Africans, so I understand that you can resent even the good things they bring.
 
Verbose said:
Because all of those were part of the parcel of western dominance. All these good deeds destroyed traditional societies more effectively than the atrocities ever could. There's no going back from them. There isn't even a way for African societies to recreate what life was like before the westerners arrived, which is how the "postcolonial situation" can be summed up. (Though westerners are always at hand to hand over pat little stories of how absolutely horrid it all was.)

Europeans gave the Africans "the fruits of modernity". But giving people things in such a way that it shows up their comparable weakness and subordination is actually and agressive act. (Especially if you've first been defeated and subjected by force.) If you're given a gift you didn't ask for, cannot refuse and cannot repay, you've really been outed to the world as a pityful creature.
So the more Good and Generous western colonialism became, the more useless the Africans were regarded as. From a western POV it was the whole point — making Us look Good, and Them look Bad, which can then be used to justify why we occupy their land and kill them if they get uppity.

Essentially Africans have been told: "You are nothing without us and have nothing without us." There are all kinds of scenarios for transferring western modernity is much less brutal ways, but Africa has pretty much had it forced down its throat while being told to be bloody grateful for it.

Small wonder they tend to resent it. I would. So would you, I imagine.

We did this exact thing to Japan. . . How'd they react?

O and you can't just leave the world in the stone age. This is just sick stuff, I can't believe I read that. You cannot leave the world behind, it could have been handled much better. Thats the human nature thing coming into play.
 
Tulkas12 said:
O and you can't just leave the world in the stone age. This is just sick stuff, I can't believe I read that. You cannot leave the world behind, it could have been handled much better. Thats the human nature thing coming into play.

In Africa it was Iron Age at least.
 
puglover said:
I read a poem by an African-American recently. It related how Africa was disrupted and destroyed by the Europeans who colonized it. The problem I see is that most African literature I hear about seems to talk about Europeans exclusively as slavers, colonizers, and conquerors.

Politically correct nonsense, I'd say a tool how to force Europeans to provide further aid to the shattered African economies.

I don't hear anything written about the terror and destruction of African tribal feuds before and after European contact. I don't hear anything written about the doctors, humanitarians, and missionaries of Europe who gave up everything they had to help those in need in a foreign country. I don't hear anything about the roads, technology, and order that many Europeans brought.

Exactly :clap:

Africa has been given aid in an amount of close to 8 Marshall plans.

In order to hide their own inadequacy, failure and criminal behaviour, the African leaders still blame Europeans for all the bad what happens there. No word about the enormous and voluntary effort of the former colonial powers to improve the lives of Africans, constantly sabotaged by the local warlords, dictators and corrupt leaders.

I do not want to undermine or hide the suffering European slavers and imperialists brought to the African continent in any way. However I do want to point out that much good is being done for their hurting land, and some attention needs to be brought to the fact that some whites are giving their all for peace even today, and need some gratitude. You can't change the fundamental human condition, but you can't change history to exaggerate your perceptions either.

These are my thoughts, but I'm no expert on African history. Am I on the right track, or on another planet altogether?

You're totally right. The modern and popular politically correct movement just want to create and impression, that all of the worlds problems are caused by Americans, Europeans or other Westerners. Only they are criticized for everything, while other parts of the world are constantly being excused.
 
Verbose said:
Because all of those were part of the parcel of western dominance. All these good deeds destroyed traditional societies more effectively than the atrocities ever could. There's no going back from them. There isn't even a way for African societies to recreate what life was like before the westerners arrived, which is how the "postcolonial situation" can be summed up. (Though westerners are always at hand to hand over pat little stories of how absolutely horrid it all was.)

Europeans gave the Africans "the fruits of modernity". But giving people things in such a way that it shows up their comparable weakness and subordination is actually and agressive act. (Especially if you've first been defeated and subjected by force.) If you're given a gift you didn't ask for, cannot refuse and cannot repay, you've really been outed to the world as a pityful creature.
So the more Good and Generous western colonialism became, the more useless the Africans were regarded as. From a western POV it was the whole point — making Us look Good, and Them look Bad, which can then be used to justify why we occupy their land and kill them if they get uppity.

Essentially Africans have been told: "You are nothing without us and have nothing without us." There are all kinds of scenarios for transferring western modernity is much less brutal ways, but Africa has pretty much had it forced down its throat while being told to be bloody grateful for it.

Small wonder they tend to resent it. I would. So would you, I imagine.

There is some truth in what you said, but you can't use it as an excuse forever.

If the post-communist countries adopted the same approach, they'd say "the Soviets destroyed our countries, exploited our people, natural resources, they invaded us, enslaved us and that's why we are lost forever. Give us the money, or we will starve to death, doing nothing and complaining about evil Soviets."
Even the Asian colonies in Indochina or India were able to develop themselves, and many of them suceeded beyond the wildest dreams. Africa can't blame the colonialism for all of its problems, because the other exploited countries have proven that it is possible to overcome its consequences.

Yes, the African colonies were "exploited", though it wasn't as bad as they keep saying. But that is in the past. They have received enough money to rebuild their societies, but instead of doing something useful, they have spend everything on wars, genocides and palaces for their leaders. Africa has enormous natural wealth and with good leadership, they can develop very quickly. But they don't. Is it a European/Western fault? No, it isn't.
 
puglover said:
I read a poem by an African-American recently. It related how Africa was disrupted and destroyed by the Europeans who colonized it. The problem I see is that most African literature I hear about seems to talk about Europeans exclusively as slavers, colonizers, and conquerors.

I believe you're talking about the Afro-centrist movement of the 1960s and 70s. Basically these were black nationalists who desperately wanted to build a seporate identity for blacks in America and who wanted to ideolize Africa even though they knew next to nothing about Africa. Thus the centered their attention almost exclusively on the slave trade and colonization.

This view got thoroughly debunked because it was utter rubbish and the historians basically tore the Afro-centrists a new one. Some people aren't interested historical facts though and instead just want to make up propoganda. Look at the creation of the "holiday" of Kwanza which was created in the 1960's and was originally claimed to be based on ancient African traditions. The problem is there was no such basis nor does anyone in Africa celibrate kwanza. Instead it is almost entirely just in the US and was completely artificially made up in the 1960's.
 
Verbose said:
You wan't to do this through category specific comparisons or not?

How many Africans go to the West permanently and end up working menial jobs? Quite a few. How many Westerners do the same with regards to Africa? None, or next to.

How many technical specialists, consultants and aid workers from Africa descend upon Europe for a set period of time, but long enough to get in peoples' faces and pick up their paycheck (and they will be making regular visits to check things out). Almost nil. How many Europeans go the other way? A lot.

On balance, the score might be pretty even, just couting the numbers.

I.e., I think these two situations need to be understood together as they tend to give the shape of the assymetrical relationship between Africa and the West. As for the actual numbers, I have no real idea, except that the exchange in quantitative terms is more even if seen this way, than if you just focus on permanent imigrants trying to improve their quality of life.


Since the African countries declared independence,
there have been two trends regarding population:

(i) forcible repatriation and ethnic cleansing of whites;
starting with Algeria and Uganda; and now South Africa
and Zimbabwe; I have met three white refugees in London.

(ii) colonisation of Europe, firstly by Algerians in France and
then more recently by Somalians in Britain.

I suspect European do-gooders do annoy many Africans,
in which case they should develop a sense of civic pride
and belief in law such that they can organise themselves.

While Europe could train more doctors and nurses rather
than buy them in from Africa leaving the Africans short
of medical expertise.
 
EdwardTking said:
While Europe could train more doctors and nurses rather
than buy them in from Africa leaving the Africans short
of medical expertise.

From some reason, African doctors usually want to leave Africa ASAP. What should Europe do - ban the immigration of skilled/educated workers? What message would it send?
 
puglover said:
I read a poem by an African-American recently. It related how Africa was disrupted and destroyed by the Europeans who colonized it. The problem I see is that most African literature I hear about seems to talk about Europeans exclusively as slavers, colonizers, and conquerors.

I don't hear anything written about the terror and destruction of African tribal feuds before and after European contact. I don't hear anything written about the doctors, humanitarians, and missionaries of Europe who gave up everything they had to help those in need in a foreign country. I don't hear anything about the roads, technology, and order that many Europeans brought.

I do not want to undermine or hide the suffering European slavers and imperialists brought to the African continent in any way. However I do want to point out that much good is being done for their hurting land, and some attention needs to be brought to the fact that some whites are giving their all for peace even today, and need some gratitude. You can't change the fundamental human condition, but you can't change history to exaggerate your perceptions either.

These are my thoughts, but I'm no expert on African history. Am I on the right track, or on another planet altogether?

Africa was completely and thoroughly taken advantage of, and exploited to the maximum extent possible by the colonizers. Colonizers is actually the PC word. Conquerers is more accurate. Africa was beaten, bloodied, and raped. Plain and simple.

Don't kid yourself. Life was hard in the Victorian era. And Africa was shown no sympathy. They were just a really big pawn that was wrecklessly taken advantage of by the rising industrializing Western empires - as they each sought to increase their power, and prestige. Namely Europe, since it was their backyard. Africa was exploited for all the classic reasons; manpower, raw materials, and overall strategic dominance of lands throughout the globe.

And Africa wasn't the only one... they were just one of the more helpless.

Britain especially, was relentless. The whole world was a big snatch-and-grab game, to further their power & glorious empire. Practically every corner of the globe was dominated by the Western empires.

Those were the days, ay?
 
Africa would be the greatest continent in the world if it didn't have diseases that were extremely creative in how they kill their hosts, crazed warlords that like to see killing and constant civil war that chases away businesses.
 
This page here has some good stats comparing SE Asia and sub-Sahara Africa:

http://www.unu.edu/HQ/academic/Pg_area4/August-intro.html

(I didn't even know the United Nations had its own university. Well you learn something new every day)

The most interesting thing is that until the early 1980s the per capita GDP in SE Asia was actually *lower* than sub-Sahara Africa. Back in 1965, Indonesia was actually worse off than the average sub-Saharan country in 1990. Back in the 1960s the Asian governments started making the changes that would later set the base for Asia's explosive growth but until 25 years ago, Africa and Asia were not that dissimilar. After looking at the stats, in particular this one, I am starting to doubt now the validity of the theory that Africa is so crap now because it suffered so much more under the colonialists than Asia did. I'm not saying it wasn't but obviously Africa managed to recover sufficiently so that it was actually doing *better* economically than Asia until 25 years ago. In fact its export performance and per capita GDP was rising at about the same rate as Asia's until the early 1980s but since then while Asia skyrocketed, Africa's economic performance has actually *declined*.

I wonder if it might have anything to do with HIV? When did that start becoming an epidemic in Africa? I think it was the 1990s. The decline started in the early 1980s so initially at least it couldn't have been due to HIV.

Are the constant wars a *result* of the crap economic performance or is it the cause (lack of stability)? Or maybe do both come from the same root which goes back to the damage caused by colonialism? Why was Africa's economic performance (slightly) better than SE Asia's until the late 20th century? Or is it just one big feed-back cycle where the lack of stability causes the crap economic performance which causes lack of stability etc. etc.? What role do the horrible partitoning of Africa by colonialists have in the whole problem? One of the most horrible things I read was that in Rwanda the whole Hutu vs Tutsi thing was invented by Westerners. They had the terms before but they were economic terms (dependent on how many cows you had) and not racial groups anymore due to intermingly. If you were a Hutu and got an extra cow to make 11 you became a Tutsi. If one of your cows die you become a Hutu. The colonialists virtually created the racial distinction. And we all know where this eventually led...The article below talks a lot about how absolutely crap most African leaders are - and he's not talking about killing people, but in terms of economic policy and long-term planning. But why? What is the root cause of this crapness? And why didn't SE Asia get similarly crap leaders?

*Sigh* it's all rather complicated.

Just to summarise some of the stuff on the page:


Apparently in the 60s, the per capita GDP of SE Asia and sub-Sahara Africa were very similar. In fact sub-Sahara africa had a slightly *higher* per capita GDP than SE Asia until the early 1980s. Hard to believe but true. But since 1970, the per capita GDP of SE Asia has tripled while that of Africa has actually *fallen*. Africa has been going *backwards*. But until only 25 years ago, sub Sahara Africa was better off than SE Asia.

One of the keys to SE Asia's success is that SE Asian countries vastly increased their exports and "connected" with the global economy while Africa remained very inwardly looking and put up a lot of trade barriers. In fact exports from African nations has *decreased* as they have become less competitive in the global economy. Other things the article points out. While the governments in SE Asia worked closely with private industry African governments were hostile to private industry.

Africa also has much greater institutional weaknesses.

While governments in SE Asia made growth and industrialisation their top priority for decades, there have been precious few African leaders willing to make this investment. This could be because the governments in Asia have tended to be more stable than in Africa.

African governments are more "predatory" than Asian ones.

African governments, have tended not to be able to put long term national development priorities over more immediate political or personal ones. Similarly, Collier and Gunning (1997) conclude that: "African governments have behaved in ways which are damaging to the long term interests of the majority of their populations because they have served narrow constituencies." The instability of regimes has also been higher. It is worrying that commentators still not that despite the rhetoric African leaders still seem to have a mistrust of the private sector (Adams, 1998).

Asian bureaucracies while fairly corrupt tend to be more efficient than African ones. In Asian countries, corruption is kept within bounds while in African bureaucracies it is completely rampant. Asian civil services tend to be far more meritocratic while the protectionism nature of African governments also reveals itself in their hiring practises.

At the public level, Reynolds (1995) notes that government’s administrative competence is the single most important factor explaining the difference in growth among many developing countries. In contrast to Southeast Asia, African governments have often been more preoccupied with securing public employment than promoting the quality of the civil service. Positions in public sector institutions, including many parastatals and monitoring and regulatory agencies, have been made ineffective due to political appointments, politically controlled funding and multiple objectives. Transparency and accountability of these public institutions has been minimal. Africa comes in the bottom group in cross-regional comparison in terms of an index of "bureaucratic efficiency" (Adam and O'Connell 1997). Even in the face of fiscal pressure, public employment was often maintained and even expanded at lower levels of the bureaucracy. The World Bank put it quite starkly: "[African] governments have become employers of last resort and dispensers of political patronage, offering jobs to family, friends and supporters" (The World Bank, 1997: 95). The poor economic management capacity and cumbersome administrative and bureaucratic structures of African bureaucracies has limited the successful formulation and implementation of economic policies and become a central obstacle to market oriented reforms.

The rule of law is quite bad in Africa e.g. property rights. Just my observation - This can be true in Asian countries as well, but at least amongst the main mercentile class, Chinese, personal relations and networks often take the place of rule of law in order to make sure people keep their contracts.

Africa has had much much higher levels of foreign aid than Asian countries. Even back in 1975 when SE Asian per capita GDP was *less* than sub-Sahara Africa's, Africa got substantially more aid. Since then the aid to Africa has skyrocketed. However, since the 1980s, what SE Asia did not attract in aid it *did* attrack in foreign investment, mainly because of the attractive investment environments their governments set up. This seems to have skyrocketed economic growth particularly in Malaysia.

Also SE Asian countries already had sound government structures in place to take advantage of aid while African government structures are not sound. That is the reforms in SE Asia came before the investment and aid.

They compare the conditions of SE Asia in 1965 to Africa in 1990. While a lot is similar, there are key differences . SE Asia in 1965 had far far more kids enrolled in school and higher adult literacy rates than sub-Sahara Africa in 1990. Some Africa countries do approach the 1965 Asian level e.g. Kenya but the average is driven far down because:

The Africa Brief (World Bank, 1998) is very clear on this: "In education, Africa faces an alarming deficit: 15 countries (out of 48) still enroll less than half of their children in primary school; 25 countries have adult literacy rates below 40%; less than 4% of the relevant age-group has access to higher education; and more than half of all African women are illiterate. Further, enrollment rates are dropping." This has very important implications in terms of recommending for many (but not all) countries in Africa the types of approach undertaken by East Asia (e.g. upgrading into manufacturing) and for transferring institutional arrangements.

Saving rates in Asia 1965 were much higher than saving rates in sub-Sahara Africa in 1990.

Debt levels in Africa are much much higher than SE Asian in 1965.

Also the situation has changed. International institutions like the IMF and World Bank today do not like 1965 SE Asian style economic policies.

End of Summary.

In my opinion, the key difference is when both regions got independence in the mid-20th century, SE Asia in general got decent leaders with a long-term plan and a willingness to industrialise and build an export industry. Africa got crap leaders. The real question is - why??? If it was just random chance you'd expect to see a 50-50 split.
 
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