Against Universal healthcare, why ?

[Godwynn]

I am against it because the universe is so friggin big. Why the hell I need to pay for the Plotnicks from Betazeds healthcare? Why?

The Plotnicks are peop... things too!

/cries

 

[MobBoss]

The Plotnicks are peop... things too!

/cries

Yeah, but they arent very productive and that rash they get is just beyond icky.....

 

[Merkinball]

"

That's enough for me. Nowhere does it say that national programs cannot be created to better the welfare of the people, and better you it does. - History Buff

How absurd. You cannot tangibly create national programs to "help" other people when they hurting many more people, and probably actually doing my harm to those being helped then they are even being helped.

My welfare should not suffer for the sake of someone elses welfare. Period.

Fair comment: To a point.

But would you think the same of a small child - who had been hit by a car (perhaps, for ultimate emotional black-mail, by a drunk-driver).

Only suggesting that there might be cases where a person could feel happy or morally obliged to use some of their hard-earned cash to help someone else out. - Mountain Goat

What about such situations? If the parents were responsible, then they'd have their own damn healthcare for their own damn family that didn't weigh down my ability to send my own damn kids off to college in twenty years. And anyways, your example is poor because such incidents are typically covered from the auto-insurance of the driver that hit the kid. I get your point though.

In general, if something unspeakable happens to people or they get sick, it should be up to individuals to donate their money and their time to assist such people. It's up do the doctors to do some pro-bono work. It's up to me to do some donating. It is not up to the government to FORCE me to support people. Invariably this results in me helping people that don't really need my help. Like fellow 26 year olds who are making $50,000 a year and pulling down SCHIP in NYS.

People can point to cheaper costs in other countries, but they do not have the level of care or innovation that we have here in the states. And I would be one to argue that the infusion of government into our healthcare system is what is invariably driving the prices up so fast. If you wanted to see healthcare costs drop, then get government out of it and let us dictate our own desitinies when it comes to our healthcare. Socialized medicine in the US would either result in a innefficient blank check to healthcare providers and fleece the tax payers of this nation, or it will result in an underfunded program which drives research, innovation, the best doctors, and nurses out of the country or out of the profession all together. Imagine the promise of ambulance chasing a government run healthcare program in America. Good freakin' golly.

 

[Cutlass]

Sorry, that's not how it works.


Again, if the Constitution had to list everything that the government wasn't permitted to do, it'd be a mile long and have 10,000 articles.

Besides, I fail to see how giving insulin to a diabetes patient that ate too much sugar is promoting the general welfare.

That's exactly how it works. The US Constitution is not made to prevent the American people from having the government it wants. It is intended to make certain that the people really want what they get.

 

[History_Buff]

Sorry, that's not how it works.

So your stance is that if something isn't expressly specified in the Constitution as something the government should be looking after, then the government should just stay out of it?

Again, if the Constitution had to list everything that the government wasn't permitted to do, it'd be a mile long and have 10,000 articles.

Indeed, which is why it uses general terms, like general welfare. To the majority of the world, your welfare includes your heath.

Besides, I fail to see how giving insulin to a diabetes patient that ate too much sugar is promoting the general welfare.

Well, for one thing, that person is better off. It means that person will continue to live a life where, while diabetic, that person will be able to work, contribute to society, and pay taxes, which offset the cost of providing a very cheap drug to someone in need.

How absurd. You cannot tangibly create national programs to "help" other people when they hurting many more people, and probably actually doing my harm to those being helped then they are even being helped.

My welfare should not suffer for the sake of someone elses welfare. Period.

I fail to see how someone could be said to be suffering due to a national health care program. Who is being hurt by this?

Lets assume for the sake of argument that a national health care system would be more expensive than the one in existence now. The only way people could be hurt by the system is by paying more taxes. In return however, you are effectively guaranteed health care. So in order to be hurt by national health care, you have to put 'having money' higher on the priority list than 'being healthy'; that sir, is ludicrous in it's very nature.

What about such situations? If the parents were responsible, then they'd have their own damn healthcare for their own damn family that didn't weigh down my ability to send my own damn kids off to college in twenty years. And anyways, your example is poor because such incidents are typically covered from the auto-insurance of the driver that hit the kid. I get your point though.

Actually, it's simply not enough in many cases. While on a trip to the States a few decades ago, my aunt was hit by a car, and wound up paying thousands of dollars in healthcare bills, which she was unable to recover from the driver. Even if she had got it back, she still wound up paying thousands of dollars out of pocket for stabilization and transport back to Canada, where she was taken care of at no cost to herself.

It's this incident that made my parents so insistent that I get travel insurance whenever I head south to the US. I was shocked to discover that this insurance cost me only $7, and I was able to get it within minutes through my bank. Something just doesn't seem right when $7 could cover thousands of dollars in US medical costs.

In general, if something unspeakable happens to people or they get sick, it should be up to individuals to donate their money and their time to assist such people. It's up do the doctors to do some pro-bono work. It's up to me to do some donating.

So you want doctors to work for free? Accept no payment, while still taking care of people? Take from each according to their ability , and provide according to their needs?

Last time I checked, you Americans were quite opposed to that sort of thing.

On top of that, when was the last time you went through a hospital writing cheques to people? How much time and money have you spent making sure people get the care they need? The world would be an AMAZING place if things actually worked like that. Unfortunately they don't. Our entire economy is set up in such a way that a gift economy is unthinkable. We have to do the next best thing.

People can point to cheaper costs in other countries, but they do not have the level of care or innovation that we have here in the states.

Then why are we happier with our health care system? Why do we live longer? Why is our infant mortality rate lower? Why do our disabled receive better care?

 

[Archbob]

We do have some form of nationalized healthcare in this country, its called medicare and medicaid for the elderly and the poor.

Its been great, we are only trillions of dollars in debt because of the first.

 

[Mr. Dictator]

i'm amazed to see how many americans are plywood christians.

(not directed to the libertarian atheists, we know you're just hateful people )

 

[Merkinball]

That's exactly how it works. The US Constitution is not made to prevent the American people from having the government it wants. It is intended to make certain that the people really want what they get. - Cutlass

Actually, this isn't what the crafters of the constitution had in mind. That is why, ummm, only certain people could vote. They were more concerned about mob rule and mob mentality taking over then fostering what was best for the nation. That's only landowners could vote, it was presumed that those people were educated and would make the best decisions as opposed to a bunch of lazy turds on welfare voting for bigger welfare checks because "that's what they want, so that's what they should get."

I fail to see how someone could be said to be suffering due to a national health care program. Who is being hurt by this? - History Buff

I already gave an example. The money that I am forced to dump into medicare and medicaid each and every year is money that I could be dumping into my own childs future and quality of life. That is how I am hurt by it. I am hurt by it because I might not be able to afford the best school that my child can attend after high school. I'm hurt because I may not be able to provide as comfortable a life as possible for my future children. Oh, but Shenanay gots free healthcare for her chirruns.

In return however, you are effectively guaranteed health care. So in order to be hurt by national health care, you have to put 'having money' higher on the priority list than 'being healthy'; that sir, is ludicrous in it's very nature. - History Buff

This is completely fallacious. The idea that I would somehow come out on top with a government run healthcare system is patently absurd. The idea that I need the government to provide me a healthier life is just absolutely stupid. It's ********. The cheapest and healthiest way for me to live coincide with one another. It's called eating right, getting enough exercise, not smoking, not drinking, not doing tobacco, not partaking in recreational drug use. This equates to cheaper healthcare premiums in a privately administered healthcare sector because I don't use the healthcare system as much as other people who do fall into the vices above. How on earth I come out on top of paying to support other peoples bad habits is beyond me. In a private system, I control my own destiny. I take care of myself. Just like everyone else should.

<Insert travelers insurance stuff here>

That may have something to do with your nationality, but if your aunt really had such a hard time, she should have sued the driver. Most liability insurance covers all, or an absurd amount of injury caused by negligent driving. And if insurance doesn't cover all of the expenses you're gonna get sued in this country, and you're gonna win too.

So you want doctors to work for free? Accept no payment, while still taking care of people? Take from each according to their ability , and provide according to their needs?

Last time I checked, you Americans were quite opposed to that sort of thing. - History Buff

Most professionals will do pro-bono work. I'm sure JollyRoger does it on the legal side of things since he is a good samaritan. I'm not saying that doctors should have to work for free, or be forced to work for free. I am saying that they should be able to use their discretion and be generous to those who are truly, genuinely in need. They shouldn't be forced to work for free if they don't want to. Nor should they be forced to take a financial hit and be forced to accept medicare and medicaid patients. But at their discretion, when they find someone who is truly in need, they should be willing to wave fees.

On top of that, when was the last time you went through a hospital writing cheques to people? How much time and money have you spent making sure people get the care they need? The world would be an AMAZING place if things actually worked like that. Unfortunately they don't. Our entire economy is set up in such a way that a gift economy is unthinkable. We have to do the next best thing. - History Buff

Why is it always about me in these threads? Sometimes I believe that you guys like these socialized bloated and innefficient programs simply because it removes the burden of guilt for you people to participate in philanthropy. But I digress, healthcare is not really one of my personal pet projects that I donate to. I donate pretty graciously to other causes, but that is neither here nor there is it? Also, my position in life in regards to writing checks is a little unique as well.

Then why are we happier with our health care system? Why do we live longer? Why is our infant mortality rate lower? Why do our disabled receive better care? - History Buff

Atticus had some nice reasons for most of these earlier. Did you catch those articles? We have way more obesity, substance abuse, MURDER and violence in general, we pretty much have more of the things that kill people faster than you. Oh, not to mention all the 12 million unhealthy illegal immigrants and millions of other third world immigrants that we have weighing our averages down.

Why are you happier? Because our people are complete and total idiots. They believe that everything should be handed to them on a platter. I've been over this before, but the Cleveland Clinic, Roswell Cancer Institute and other Western New York, Ohio, and Michigan health facilities are FULL of Canadians who get CONTRACTED OUT INTO THE STATES because your facilities do not have the capacity to take care of your own people.

The very fact that our people are more displeased than the situation you clowns are going through in Canada should pique some insight into your mind as to how out of touch Americans really are.

Think of it this way. No insurance? No problem! You get treated here anyway. No muss no fuss.

 

[Alpine Trooper]

Think of it this way. No insurance? No problem! You get treated here anyway. No muss no fuss.

Same thing here. Gee, I guess the only difference is that you never hear of people dying in Canadian waiting rooms.

That's probably because the Canadian government can afford to pay the American Hospital. Unfortunately the American can't always afford to pay the American Hospital.

That should tell you something about the sad state of your own affairs.

 

[Ace of Gold]

Why am I against Universal health care? Well Why should the poor scum who cant afford health care get it for free at the expense of the decent people that can actually afford it. We would have to wait in longer lines, wait longer for appointments and get horrible health care cause it would be funded by the government. Health Care is a privilege, not a right.

 

[aronnax]

Why am I against Universal health care? Well Why should the poor scum who cant afford health care get it for free at the expense of the decent people that can actually afford it. We would have to wait in longer lines, wait longer for appointments and get horrible health care cause it would be funded by the government. Health Care is a privilege, not a right.

Right! The goverment isnt responsible for the education, healthcare and safety of the people!

We should disband soup kitchen because they only attract lazy riff-raff into the city area and lower our housing value! Damn the lousy Sonofa*itch who opened it to help the poor. He is so selfish for not thinking of us.

We should also shut down orphanages and charities! Why should the goverment pay for the deaths and debts of stupid and careless parents who are obviously children haters. And those people who run around the street asking for "donations" with their cans. Only to obstruct the lives of people with jobs! Get rid of them all, those annoying people.

Lets tell the schools they are on their own! Why should decent people with hardworking jobs, especially those without children, pay for the education of the brats of other people! Especially those good-for-nuthins that dont work as they are OBVIOUSLY SO LAZY.

Pff... As for Police and firemen, the poor and jobless dont pay or hardly pay taxes! Why should they deserve protection? I mean they dont contribute to society. Bunch of buggers, they deserve to get mobbed or robbed for not having a job during a bad job market and recession. From now onwards, the goverment should make it a law that you need to present tax forms before the police and fire department help you.

Stupid poor people. Obviously scum of society cause the only reason why they are poor and homeless and suck is because they are lazy and want to smooch off people.

Oh yeah! Who cares about a stupid piece of paper, penned by Elenor Roosevelt, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights where in article 25, it is stated that

Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.

Health Care is a privilege, not a right.

 

[warpus]

Churchill25

Yeah, screw the poor.. that's right. brilliant strategy there.

When my family moved to Canada we couldn't afford any healthcare at all. Fortunately the state took care of that - we were able to see a dentist, get regular checkups, cheaper medicine, etc.

By your thinking we should have been left out to die.. Yeah.. thanks.

 

[Ace of Gold]

Why should the rich have to wait in longer lines cause the poor get health care for free. Why should the quality of health care drop cause now the poor get health care. If you can not afford it, then you do not deserve it.

 

[aronnax]

Why should the rich have to wait in longer lines cause the poor get health care for free. Why should the quality of health care drop cause now the poor get health care. If you can not afford it, then you do not deserve it.

You are so right Churchill! I mean obviously the Rich cant afford a private doctor! Or that the rich are better than the poor and deserve to be treated first before anyone else.
And that people who cant afford deserve not to have it. I mean they are lazy people cause they havent earned it! Its not like a bad job market or sudden widowhood or a bad business decision that made them jobless and poor.

 

[Mr. Dictator]

Why should the rich have to wait in longer lines cause the poor get health care for free. Why should the quality of health care drop cause now the poor get health care. If you can not afford it, then you do not deserve it.

do you really have no sense of compassion?

a man without a heart has no business living.

 

[Godwynn]

You are so right Churchill! I mean obviously the Rich cant afford a private doctor! Or that the rich are better than the poor and deserve to be treated first before anyone else.
And that people who cant afford deserve not to have it. I mean they are lazy people cause they havent earned it! Its not like a bad job market or sudden widowhood or a bad business decision that made them jobless and poor.

do you really have no sense of compassion?

a man without a heart has no business living.

Guys, you aren't getting this. We can make this great. Why should the rich have to wait in line at McDonald's because of the poor? In fact, I suggest we hand out "Rich Cards" that allow them to cut in line in front of non-holders of the "Rich Card." It'll be awesome! No more waiting at Wal*Mart to get the latest Jim Carrey movie! Show those lazy welfare bums your "Rich Card" and they will have to step aside and allow you get on with your day.

 

[Mr. Dictator]

Guys, you aren't getting this. We can make this great. Why should the rich have to wait in line at McDonald's because of the poor? In fact, I suggest we hand out "Rich Cards" that allow them to cut in line in front of non-holders of the "Rich Card." It'll be awesome! No more waiting at Wal*Mart to get the latest Jim Carrey movie! Show those lazy welfare bums your "Rich Card" and they will have to step aside and allow you get on with your day.

youre right, then i can steal churchill's rich card and make sure he doesnt get healthcare.

nah, too little. steal all his family's rich cards.

 

[aronnax]

Guys, you aren't getting this. We can make this great. Why should the rich have to wait in line at McDonald's because of the poor? In fact, I suggest we hand out "Rich Cards" that allow them to cut in line in front of non-holders of the "Rich Card." It'll be awesome! No more waiting at Wal*Mart to get the latest Jim Carrey movie! Show those lazy welfare bums your "Rich Card" and they will have to step aside and allow you get on with your day.

Brilliant!

I nominate Godwynn for a Nobel Peace Price!

Im still waiting to challenge what I said. And Im not going to be referred to an arguement on page 4.

 

[philippe]

Why am I against Universal health care? Well Why should the poor scum who cant afford health care get it for free at the expense of the decent people that can actually afford it. We would have to wait in longer lines, wait longer for appointments and get horrible health care cause it would be funded by the government. Health Care is a privilege, not a right.

Health care is a fricking right.

Article 3
Everyone has the right to life, liberty, and security of person
Article 22
Everyone, as a member of society, has the right to social security and is entitled to realization, through national effort and international co-operation and in accordance with the organization and resources of each State, of the economic, social and cultural rights indispensable for his dignity and the free development of his personality.
Article 25
Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.
Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance. All children, whether born in or out of wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection.

 

[Cutlass]

Guys, you aren't getting this. We can make this great. Why should the rich have to wait in line at McDonald's because of the poor? In fact, I suggest we hand out "Rich Cards" that allow them to cut in line in front of non-holders of the "Rich Card." It'll be awesome! No more waiting at Wal*Mart to get the latest Jim Carrey movie! Show those lazy welfare bums your "Rich Card" and they will have to step aside and allow you get on with your day.

That's almost like making them peers of the realm next we'll all have to bow and scrape as they go by.