ALC Game 17: Russia/Peter

[futurehermit]

When you get Ragnar to pleased, he WILL trade techs with you.

 

[Kev]

Boy, a few days go by and so much has happened already! Great pace on this game...

OK, my chiming involves promoting the axe rush. Hey, I'm just tuning in now, so I'm taking it from a starting point of where we stand. I see we have copper hooked up, fair to midland production potential, our closest neighbor has a capital city to drool over, said closest neighbor has apparently not been gifted with strategic metals or horses even, and we need to punch through said neighbor to open up some decent land.

Hey, if Raggie had cooper/iron and could make annoyingly-aggressive axe/sword/spears I'd abandon the plan and try for a later hit, but as things currently stand I say we are far enough down the road of a military strike that it just would not make sense to pull back now. It's a worthwhile gambit, though the better AI might make one nervous. Still, precision striking at full strength at the capital of our enemy-to-be should do it.

Plus, the army costs will start dropping as our brave troops fall.

 

[patagonia]

A canal city grabbing the incense would be nice down the line depending on naval movements, but does absolutely squat for you now, which is what matters (can't work incense until calendar and can't move boats until you've got a navy, which is just about the last priority right now).

One more city makes sense in the buildup to the rush and that's a straight toss-up between triple-fur or a second fish city. Both have reasonable whip production; triple-fur will yield a lot more commerce to pay for your army, but another fish and hills city will give you more raw hammers.

I think the deer fur spot makes most sense for now. Between that, Nidaros and some scientists in Moscow, your economy will be in very good shape after viking lands have been claimed.

 

[Melon Head]

I've got to agree with a quick axe rush as well. You simply don't have any choice. If you wait and found a commerce city to pay for upkeep...then Ragnar might have longbows by the time the commerce city grows to a large enough size to work all the furs.

On the other hand, if you build too many axemen...you have to get rid of some of them. If maintenance costs get large, you decrease the slider until you have to disband some axes. Whatever. I think it's worth it. I'd rather build too many axes and get rid of some of them (remember that you will certainly lose some axes attacking Ragnar, too) than have too few too late. Also, you can swap your bronze city to working water tiles for some emergency commerce if you need it for a couple of turns.

Think of it this way. Instead of building a commerce city, Sisiutil can simply take a commerce city. One that will also cripple a nearby tech threat and secure good land for the future.

 

[OTAKUjbski]

I've got to agree with a quick axe rush as well. You simply don't have any choice. If you wait and found a commerce city to pay for upkeep...then Ragnar might have longbows by the time the commerce city grows to a large enough size to work all the furs.

On the other hand, if you build too many axemen...you have to get rid of some of them. If maintenance costs get large, you decrease the slider until you have to disband some axes. Whatever. I think it's worth it. I'd rather build too many axes and get rid of some of them (remember that you will certainly lose some axes attacking Ragnar, too) than have too few too late. Also, you can swap your bronze city to working water tiles for some emergency commerce if you need it for a couple of turns.

Think of it this way. Instead of building a commerce city, Sisiutil can simply take a commerce city. One that will also cripple a nearby tech threat and secure good land for the future.

Taking a gem-studded holy city away from a shut-in is obviously the best choice here (I don't think many will dispute that). But without the ability to fund an army, our units will dissipate at Nidaros' doorstep. Therefore, a solid source of maintenance must come before taking Nidaros.

There's no reason why the crabby fur city can't be founded at the onset of the buildup, so that as the military grows, so does its ability to fund it.

"It's the economy, stupid ..."

Build the crabby fur city and chop a Granary then a Monument. Other than a lighthouse down the road, that's all it needs to do its job for us funding the war effort.​

-- my 2

 

[LlamaCat]

if you are going for an early rush on Ragnar, it seems that based on the map showing copper so far away from the capital, you should have researched iron working to find iron closer by (hopefully) and then use swordsmen. the maintenance is killing you, at least if I was playing this game I would be very wary about founding that second city so far away.

otherwise, I agree with some other comments on here questioning why the axe rush at all if the economy is so bad. build more cities and attack him later.

Actually it's kind of depressing to see early war, or later war for that matter, be almost an assumed strategy in these games. It kind of seems so one-dimensional. but that's for another thread I guess.

 

[Kietharr]

Run him through before his research starts skyrocketing, he's got two extremely nice cities down there. Axe him and rex for a middle ages rush against mehmed, you can't afford to let him bottle you up in the frozen north.

 

[Melon Head]

I've got to agree with a quick axe rush as well. You simply don't have any choice. If you wait and found a commerce city to pay for upkeep...then Ragnar might have longbows by the time the commerce city grows to a large enough size to work all the furs.

On the other hand, if you build too many axemen...you have to get rid of some of them. If maintenance costs get large, you decrease the slider until you have to disband some axes. Whatever. I think it's worth it. I'd rather build too many axes and get rid of some of them (remember that you will certainly lose some axes attacking Ragnar, too) than have too few too late. Also, you can swap your bronze city to working water tiles for some emergency commerce if you need it for a couple of turns.

Think of it this way. Instead of building a commerce city, Sisiutil can simply take a commerce city. One that will also cripple a nearby tech threat and secure good land for the future.

 

[ds61514]

I will have to say, from personal experience, it is definitely possible to overrun Longbows with sufficient catas and swords, especially since outside of Nidaros Rag has bad land.

If you really want to abuse Philo, make friends with Mehmed (who will probably find a religion) and bribe Philosophy/Education to have him attack Ragnar first .

 

[thresh74]

Also the fog-busting guys at fur+crab+deer and incense+clam sites should be immediately withdrawn or send out to explore. I will be a little surprised if barb does not settle on those areas soon. I just do not know whether Moscow is too shiny for them to settle on the correct spot. If not, at least our axes or swords can practise their muscle before smashing some skulls in Viking. Leave the one on fish+cow+wheat+fur site. The correct spot is on top of hill. If barb settle there, it will be a huge setback for us.

After some consideration, I think next settler should go to fish+cow+wheat+fur site. After border expansion, both St. Petersburg and Novogrod can work the fur. This will help the economy problem and we can produce the army soon.

Swordsman (str 6 with 10% city attack bonus = 6.6) is 30% better than axeman (str 5) when dealing with archer. We should build axe while researching iron-working and switch production to sword after research done. If we pillaging Viking's iron mine, he should not have too many axeman or spearman. I think that to research the alphebet and hope for trading is too much gambling.

 

[OTAKUjbski]

I think that to research the alphebet and hope for trading is too much gambling.

As is expecting Iron to show up -- much less in an accessible location.

Trading happens in one way or another every game ... finding [insert a hidden resource here] is only guaranteed if you've been peaking into the World Builder. (In which case we'd rather not hear about it and spoil the surprise.)

Time is of the essence, and banking on there being Iron somewhere close seems like a far riskier endeavour than getting to Alphabet for trading.


-- more of my 2

 

[slaze]

Go with the wheat. Library in Moscow while growing. Down the road (after fishing or even pottery) get the deer up, chop/build axes, take Nidaros

 

[Hero]

We could pick up a little extra cash by detouring through Uppsala on the way to Nidaros. Also, researching Fishing would allow Moscow to work that lake tile.

 

[Lance of Llanwy]

The longer you leave Ragnar, the harder he'll get to crack. Let's face it....he's financial and he has multiple gems in his capital. He has a trading partner, and a holy city. You're not financial, your land is marginal, you don't have the 'Mids, and your best chance for a quick buck is fur. On top of all that, we're playing on Monarch with Better AI. Ragnar WILL run away from you. If you don't stamp him out now, your only hope is to lightbulb something juicy and trade it, because you won't come close to him in terms of raw commerce(and your land isn't good enough to squeeze out enough food for scientists to make enough beakers.) Fortune favors the bold. Get chopping, and prepare for the worst. Your economy isn't going to get better enough that you can safely put off an assault until Construction. It's not game over if he gets Longbows, but it sure as hell won't be pretty.

 

[futurehermit]

The longer you leave Ragnar, the harder he'll get to crack. Let's face it....he's financial and he has multiple gems in his capital. He has a trading partner, and a holy city. You're not financial, your land is marginal, you don't have the 'Mids, and your best chance for a quick buck is fur. On top of all that, we're playing on Monarch with Better AI. Ragnar WILL run away from you. If you don't stamp him out now, your only hope is to lightbulb something juicy and trade it, because you won't come close to him in terms of raw commerce(and your land isn't good enough to squeeze out enough food for scientists to make enough beakers.) Fortune favors the bold. Get chopping, and prepare for the worst. Your economy isn't going to get better enough that you can safely put off an assault until Construction. It's not game over if he gets Longbows, but it sure as hell won't be pretty.

With lightbulbing it certainly would've been possible to settle our patch of land, beeline cossacks (UU!!!) and hit Ragnar, wiping him out very quickly while he still has longbows. Then proceed to mop of Mehmed as well.

Instead, we have here a stifled economy that needs to be recovered and settling the rest of the landmass will be tricky with the economy strung out.

Both ways can work, I believe. Although I believe this particular set-up lends itself more to option 1--as I outlined earlier--I think the axe-rush can still be ok.

But don't delay!!! The economy is going to hurt with furs or without it. Sack Nidaros with a huge pile of axes, research at 0%, finish Ragnar and then recover. Lightbulb techs to get back to parity and then surpass the ai.

One advantage to falling behind is that you can pick your lightbulbs and trading opportunities appropriately.

 

[Tyrael]

I vote for founding fur/deer city up north while building up axes to take on Ragnar. Don't worry yourself about it's production or growth beyond working furs- it's sole purpose at the start would be funding your army.

-My

 

[Sisiutil]

Dang. Furs or Wheat? Tough decision...

 

[carl corey]

Ok, I got the picture of settling the canal later. Normally I'd go for Wheat & production, but you'd still have to build cultural buildings in 2nd & 3rd city and Monuments are pretty far down the line at your current research rate. So I'll give a reluctant vote for furs. The capital and copper city have enough production between them to build the axes & accompanying chariot or two, and the furs will allow you to pay for the army.

You'll get to settle wheat right after the conquest, and if you fogbust you'll have no problems with it anyway.

 

[IPEX-731BA5DD06]

Rush Ragnar, but scout out his capital, your first and main target, the new 'improved' A.I. tends to put most of army on borders and leaves scant reserves in inner or core cities.

Also I think, or I believe, that it doesn't mass produce troops like it used to, but goes more for early research ie bronze/iron to build a base for its army, so its emminately rushable.

Ragnar may have the commerace and tech, but what tech's? and what army? its all situational.

P.S. sisiutil, you seem to have lost some of your early skills...don't rush it, let Moscow grow then whip, farm floodplains, grow citizens and production/ commerace will follow...

 

[Yushal]

If you found the wheat city, you will just exacerbate your maintenance troubles. You'll need a culture pop before just about anything begins to happen with that city, so that means a monument chopped then fifteen more turns, then at least 6 more to put in improvements. For the axe rush, thats alot of time before it becomes very useful.

Furs city will give you a much faster benefit. About ten turns after founding you can have the deer and one fur working for you? That's about 5 commerce over the cost of the city maintenance?

Good luck, commander!