ALC Game 17: Russia/Peter

[futurehermit]

The Vikings look cramped in there.

That means:

1) They will be attacking you soon

and

2) The war should be short if you have a large enough force

Also, Ragnar WILL trade at PLEASED. So, if you had gifted him alpha asap to get him to pleased, he would've subsequently traded with you.

I didn't realize either that that city had missed that floodplains, but that does indeed suck Too bad on that one, but oh well.

I would say take a strong mixed stack (cata/sword/axe/spear/harcher/archer) and wipe out Ragnar asap. Then consider your options.

Try and get relations with Mehmed and Mao to Friendly eventually if at all possible in case you want to go diplomatic.

 

[Morgrad]

Swords and catapults are certainly enough to beat the AI - a single pikeman in the stacks wouldn't hurt to defend against HAs. I'd take everything north of (and including) Nidaros, razing everything but the uber-gem city if your economy can't handle the new cities, plus razing any viking city putting cultural pressure on Nidaros.

I think building anything but military from now until the time Nidaros falls would be a mistake. Pump out a stack 'o doom and put it to good use, sir!

See if Ragnar will give up any techs for peace at that point (he probably won't), but I would probably end up taking peace and consolidating anyway.

For the GS? I'd probably save him for the Liberalism race. Just being the first to Paper can easily be the difference between winning it or not. Regardless of what else happens, beelining cossacks is going to be important - and free Paper/Education + free Nationalism puts you a massive step closer to Cossacks. Save him for later.

 

[pigswill]

Cottage Moscow, you'll have plenty of spare food with 4 cottaged FP and cows, build an academy with your GS.

You've got axes already, couple of spears for HA and lots of catapults and try to get to war before Ragnar gets to berserkers.

Bit surprised to see you trading for cheap techs; if you're likely to run into WFYABTA then its better to save the trades for something worthwhile.

Good luck.

 

[Validator]

So that's where things stand. Let me know what you think--like I have to ask!

I had a look at the save and things aren't looking good.

As pigswill mentioned, trading for all those cheap techs has resulted in WFYABTA with all of the AIs at the moment. So you'll either need to get one to Friendly or wait until they forget a tech trade before you can do any more trading. You have Construction on both Mehmed and Mao but can't trade it for anything. At this point you face the prospect of having to research CoL, Monarchy and Currency yourself, before you can even start on CS and the Liberalism beeline.

With that in mind, why are you researching Literature? All of the AIs have it and Ragnar has marble. Do you really think you still have a shot at GL?

According to the trade screen Ragnar has horses (obviously gotten in trade from Mehmed) and he has a war elephant and catapult sitting in Uppsala, so war with him isn't going to be easy IMO. I'm still not sure if the people predicting an easy war are basing their opinions on the BetterAI or the standard AI, but based on my experiences with BetterAI I don't see this as an easy war. Ragnar does has limited production capacity in his tiny empire, but with enough of a tech lead I expect him to be a formidable opponent.

Ragnar also has a second source of iron in the south of his empire, so a quick pillage to deny him metal may not be an option (although you could probably position some mounted units down in Mehmed's territory to try to get the second iron).

There was one major positive development that wasn't discussed in the update. Mehmed has founded Christianity. AFAIK the BetterAI mod didn't do anything to change the way the AI deals with religion, so I would expect Mehmed to convert relatively soon. That would set up some tension between the AIs and would hopefully provide a distraction for Ragnar. At this point I think a significant amount of AI-AI fighting is your only chance of salvaging this game. It's also important that you have a military built up so that you can take advantage of any AI DOWs (unlike the last game where you weren't ready to fight when Huayna and Isabella went to war).

Some other things I noticed from the save:

Moscow doesn't need a Confucian monastery. Either a stable or temple or catapult would be a better build there.

Most of your other cities don't have granaries yet. You do realize that Expansive gives cheap granaries, right?

You can trade fur to Mao for 4 GPT.

You may want to build some triremes when you get a chance to prevent the pillaging of fishing boats when you go to war. In addition to losing , the fishing boats are feeding most of your scientists, so losing them would cripple your research efforts.

The only reason Mao is not Pleased like the other AIs is because you cancelled OB with him.

 

[Porphyrius]

Well, the situation looks much better now.

I would say take a strong mixed stack (cata/sword/axe/spear/harcher/archer) and wipe out Ragnar asap. Then consider your options.

Ragnar can certainly be taken out with mostly swords/cats, and it should be your first priority from now on. However too versatile an invading force can prove alibility. Ragnar has elephants and likely many mounted troops.Spears/pikes should acompany swords/cats in numbers but little else is needed.

Also Ragnar can trade for war resources and has currently 3 iron sources/ivory/horses so just focus on taking cities.

The Vikings look cramped in there.

That means:

1) They will be attacking you soon

and

2) The war should be short if you have a large enough force

He has not really build militarily yet but disposition towards mounted troops shows he may have war in his mind. Maybe you can avoid the diplo penalty. But do focus on pumping spears/cats ASAP less he catches you unprepared.


If you are serious about running for liberalism you will NEED the scientist there. Mehmed has an exceptional land Great Walls and proly Pyramids and more wonders in his capital. Too bad you likely cant get to him before his UU comes into play to boost your SE.
I often use a scientist to make an academy in the enemy capitals i run over if the timing is good, doesnt look like a favorable situation for this though.

Using alphabet for tading is nice, but packing cheap early techs is a no no. Now you could get CoL/currency instead.
Till you get your hands on a worthy relig civic monks isnt a priority as well.

 

[BARBEERIAN]

Build an Academy with ur GS and seriously consider settling the vast majority of GS's in Moscow AFTER the liberalism race has been bulbed to victory. The beakers really do add up to alot more long term vs. bulbing.

Example: I think the max you'll bulb is about 2500 beakers / tech. A settled GS is 6 beakers * the cities research bonuses (It's quite easy to get Moscow to +75% science right now, and with stuff like Oxford and Observatories it'll be over +200%). Usually the math works out that the bonus is MUCH higher with settling a GS, but bulbing you get the bonus front-loaded all at once.

Seeing as this game looks like it will be a long road to maybe Space Race or Diplo the added long term benefits of settling will pay off. I usually settle say 13'ish GS's in moscow by end-game and with Rep that's 117 Raw Beakers * Bonuses (IIRC probably 250 or 275%) that's more than 400 Beakers per turn. It really helped me research those late game techs at top speed and have some room to play with the culture slider without worrying about falling behind.

 

[jerVL/kg]

Researching DRAMA will open up Philosophy, and I'm pretty sure the GS prefers lightbulbing that over Calendar. I'd go for that next especially since Taoism is still available!

Then I'd head for MC/Machinery/Engineering, nobody has MC yet so you won't be facing xbows/pikes/berzerkers if you strike Ragnar quickly. Find out who's trading horses/ivory to Ragnar and bribe them to stop trading (if you can.)

Reopening borders with Mao will fix your disposition with him. Mehmed is likely to convert to Xtianity soon, might be worth waiting for that before attacking the Vikings. Of course, you're at the bottom of the power graph, so the likelihood of Ragnar attacking you first is very high. Definitely start working on military but DO get the granaries done first!!!

Others have pointed out the totally placement of Yekaterinburg, so I won't mention it.

 

[MangleMeElmo]

^^CoL opens up Philosophy too. CoL is also a much more important tech than drama.

 

[jerVL/kg]

^^CoL opens up Philosophy too. CoL is also a much more important tech than drama.

But Drama is cheaper, isn't it?

 

[JujuLautre]

doesn't philo need CoL AND ( drama OR meditation ) ? If so, he needs CoL, not Drama

Now back to lurking

 

[aelf]

doesn't philo need CoL AND ( drama OR meditation ) ? If so, he needs CoL, not Drama

Nope. It needs either. I always go CoL, since it's needed for courthouses anyway, which I believe Sisiutil will need soon. There a couple of people who prefer Drama because it's cheaper and helps to ensure that you get to Philosophy first, but I usually have no problem going the CoL route.

 

[kniteowl]

I think going down the COL route is better because it also opens up CS.

Also trade Compass for Monarchy to increase you're pop Cap.

 

[Hackapell]

sorry I'm late to the party, but I was away for a month with no connection to the outside world.
Col for the philo is a good move here, that will allow you to build courthouses in your newly conquered viking cities. You can also use that as a trading chip to grab the last two big C techs .(Calendar, Currency)
I always perfer peter to catherine, becuase with catherine I go settler happy and over-expand, killing my economy for a while. Peter, on the other hand, starts very slow, but picks up speed when approching Liberalism. Definently build up defense; Raggy is very aggressive, and is bottled up. usually, that means he's going to force his way out, most likely through you, the weakest. A build-up would deter that and make raggy focus on Mehmed, his likely next-greatest enemy. then, once he's built the GLib for you, attack.

 

[LightSpectra]

Because you're behind in techs, I'm going to suggest you found an Academy in your capital, and then build some cottages around it.

You won't immediately catch up, but it should start to bridge together your progress rates.

 

[Jet]

Yeah, maybe an Academy. Hard to guess exactly what you'll have to self-research on the way to Cossacks. If you're in WFYABTA, then an Academy does seem more appealing, doesn't it?

 

[futurehermit]

Well, the situation looks much better now.



Ragnar can certainly be taken out with mostly swords/cats, and it should be your first priority from now on. However too versatile an invading force can prove alibility. Ragnar has elephants and likely many mounted troops.Spears/pikes should acompany swords/cats in numbers but little else is needed.

Also Ragnar can trade for war resources and has currently 3 iron sources/ivory/horses so just focus on taking cities.




He has not really build militarily yet but disposition towards mounted troops shows he may have war in his mind. Maybe you can avoid the diplo penalty. But do focus on pumping spears/cats ASAP less he catches you unprepared.


If you are serious about running for liberalism you will NEED the scientist there. Mehmed has an exceptional land Great Walls and proly Pyramids and more wonders in his capital. Too bad you likely cant get to him before his UU comes into play to boost your SE.
I often use a scientist to make an academy in the enemy capitals i run over if the timing is good, doesnt look like a favorable situation for this though.

Using alphabet for tading is nice, but packing cheap early techs is a no no. Now you could get CoL/currency instead.
Till you get your hands on a worthy relig civic monks isnt a priority as well.

I think a mixed stack at this point is appealing:

-Swords/catas for taking cities
-Axes and spears for stack defense
-Archers/Longbows for city defense
-Horse archers for dealing with roaming enemy harchers in enemy territory (spears on roads can handle things in the homeland). Only need 1-2 of them though.
-I forget if we have ivory. If so, some war elephants would also be good.

 

[frob2900]

I think a mixed stack at this point is appealing:

-Swords/catas for taking cities
-Axes and spears for stack defense
-Archers/Longbows for city defense
-Horse archers for dealing with roaming enemy harchers in enemy territory (spears on roads can handle things in the homeland). Only need 1-2 of them though.

I'm with Futurehermit here. Mixed stack. That danged BetterAI will respond more effectively to invasion, so it's good to have a varied army to draw on. I'd personally go light on the archers/longbows, though, since Horse Archers are generally the biggest annoyance. Perhaps one bow per captured city for garrison, then whip another one with captured population (after theatres).

-I forget if we have ivory. If so, some war elephants would also be good.

No ivory as far as I saw from the maps. This is bad. Elephants are the bees knees for invasions at this point in time. Good city breakers, good horse counters and importantly good Crossbow counters.

Murphy's Law for early medieval invasions:
"If you don't have ivory, then your opponent will tech machinery the turn you declare war"



[EDIT] Does Ragnar have Iron though? Well.. it probably doesn't matter.

Murphy's corollary for early medieval invasions:
"Your opponent will also invariably get iron in trade on the same turn".

 

[futurehermit]

Yeah, you don't need a bazillion archer/longbows 1-2 per city is sufficient.

 

[Porphyrius]

In theory flexible stacks are nice. Thats what the AI tries to pull out- better or not. But, lets see how they apply to our particular situation.

We have no ivory for elephants and the only two sources in the continent are hooked by Mao who trades one to Ragnar. If we could elude diplomatically to get the ivory instead of Ragnar it would be very nice. Right now it seems but a longshot though...

Deploying horse archers faces the following drawbacks:

1. He has elephants that dont just top HA they are twice as strong,
2. the terain is narrow especially between Nidaros and Upsalla meaning less necesity for speed 2 units
3. we dont need to pillage resources cause as i mentioned Ragnar is getting all essential war resources via trade on top of his pair of irons
4. we dont want to pillage cottages around the two bigger cities cause they are for the most part the reason for invading, to beef up our economy
   

We dont have feudalism for lonbows, or monarchy for that matter. Research is not a strong point of our and we are out of tech trading. If we were to devote effort to getting futher military tech we would delay the attack further. Building up fast is vital, as you say he is preping for war himshelf. Even on that event i would aim for maces as they fill a much more vital gap.
Are mere archers up to the task so late, rather than mixed axes/spears???

We allready have axes and should build more spears than usual as Ragnar is going for mostly mounted troops. Cats/swords to be the main force naturally. I sense Sis is aiming to get vassalage/theocracy for beefed troops, i would opt for speed and numbers myself.
That makes far more sense considering the situation at hand. After trying several approaches to warmongering ihave to say i am much more impressed by sieges/melee armies this early than anything else, elephants being the possible exception

 

[frob2900]

After trying several approaches to warmongering ihave to say i am much more impressed by sieges/melee armies than anything else, elephants being the possible exception

Elephants are priority #1 in this situation. From the map it looked like only Mao/Mehmed had 2 Ivory, but since Ragnar is apparently trading then...

Can he be trade embargoed?

Can Ivory be traded with Mao/Mehmed? (Doubtful, but I'm just asking to make sure). This would make the war about 3000% easier.

If Ragnar has Ivory, then that drops the Horse Archer some in priority, but the odd one might still probably be alright.

From what I have experienced of Monarch/BetterAI (and Ragnar, who loves to spam units I think), the russian Stack of Death needs to be large.

At least:
5 Swords
5 Axes
4 Spearmen (because of elephants)
8-10 Catapults (preferably more, to knock his culture down quick so he cant whip/build while your bombarding)
1 or 2 Horse Archers (but these are not obligatory since Ragnar has ivory)
[EDIT]Looking at the list again, this looks slightly low to me. None of these should be garrisoning conquests.. Whip extra units for that, either in Russia or in occupied Vikinglandia (Scandinavia?)

That's around 20 or so units and a bunch of hammers. This would mean beginning whip/chopping ASAP. Lots of forest around Moscow.

Catapults should be being rapidly whipped throughout the war as reinforcements since it may be necessary to suicide quite a few in case of a 6-8 longbowman+melee horror garrison. This way the catas can be sacrificed and the melee units can fight at favorable odds, leaving them healthy to repel counterattacks.