ALC Game 17: Russia/Peter

[Porphyrius]

I wrote maximum 2 extra cities on top of Moscow for a total of 3 naturally, otherwise no copper thus no rush. So i see t he difference in preference is about which cities excactly. I just want to point out that the speed the cities take to grow to functional production size matters equally with the speed they churn out axes and can be more of a bottleneck in this case.

I still think the 3 fish city is way as the blue city only has +8 (the 3 fish city goes easily up to +18) surplus, its not a good GP farm. Whats worse aside from the resources every square is 1 or 0 and using the depletes this surplus. Plus a precious is completely lost in Validator map.
It may be sort of use though. Might i suggest something in between, a city just SW of the blue dot. Such a city can coexist with a 3 fish city sharing only one fish for growth at the small price of no lighthouse thus -1. It'll be not much of a GP farm still but could employ 2 scientists early. Later on with CS it could grow more decent. Ofcourse noneed to settle it ASAP.

Of course the token city to hook copper wont have food and thus grow slowly to size maybe 3. However, even the fish only lets it be worked as size 6 or so city so its not a major loss, the city is next to impossible chain-irrigate along desert and hills. And since it has 6 even at size 1 it could help the rush by making a couple of axes and the 3 fish city can grow extremely fast and make9 even at population 3 plus whipping.Not to mention after the axes are done it could be switched to work furs to finance the war.

 

[slaze]

My takes:

Go with Validator's map.

Ragnar: I see about two ways of dealing with him. One, you could rush him right away, and two, you could wait awhile, let him calenderize the resources, tech yourself to contruction and then go. I'd lean towards the first approach; it'll be easier and less costly to get him sooner. And for that approach the green and the blue cities have plenty of hammers to get your axes ready for Ragnar. Rven if he builds "Birka" on the incense, at least it's one less city to build. Expand east, not west.

Fogbust: You'll need 6 units to clear everything, and five units come too one tile short. you have three scouts, build your warriors.

But if you have everything fogbusted, do you need to get bronze asap? Well, anything other than bronze for city #1 slows down your axe rush and that might be just enough reason to make that the necessary move. But settling the yellow would sure give a kick to your research. And It'll be awhile before the "Great Highway" makes it out to bronze. Whatever, I'd still go with bronze. But try and get all those cities out relatively soon.

Looks like wheat's your temporary gp farm. at least untill you get sugar.

Your bureaucratic capital can work 18 cottages at 19 pop (but then it'll probably go down to 16 after iron and horses show up). Does that mean an academy would be worth it?

 

[pigswill]

The major calculation is whether or not Sisiutil can get a stack of 6-8 axes in place before Ragnar can get to longbows. If Nidaros has a couple of gem mines then it'll pay for its upkeep but it'll also have been boosting Ragnar's research.

 

[slaze]

I still think the 3 fish city is way as the blue city only has +8 (the 3 fish city goes easily up to +18) surplus, its not a good GP farm. Whats worse aside from the resources every square is 1 or 0 and using the depletes this surplus. Plus a precious is completely lost in Validator map.

There's no need for a +18 gp farm at this point in the game. We don't have near enough resources to support a city like that yet and founding it for it's later potential compromises the cities around it. It's much better to have 2 well balanced cities that can support an axe rush than one crazy gp farm that doesn't live up to its potential untill the late renaissance.

Put the NE in sugar.

 

[slaze]

Splitting the fishes as Validator says leads to two slow growth below average cities that ll stagnate economy.

Completely wrong. They both have furs. Sea commerce makes them commerce positive.

 

[slaze]

i just gotta say i am savagly impressed by the missmicromanaging in the start... there is no reason to not grow as fast as possible. working plain forest / floodplains every other turn is stricly better than working the grassland forest(same yield over 2 turns cept 1 more commerce). After you grow you can also swich to a more hammer focused title's that are worked so you get the scout asa after growing... this would have let you gotten BW faster and hence been able to whip the worker asap(as i explained in the pregame thread) and basically come out the same as if you went with worker first... now it is waaaay too late... why the heck didnt you just stop after BW???? you should have whipped at once... getting out those early workers help soooo much it is not funny...

also much good the scouts did you... it is just like the mehemed game all over again(getting early scouts that slow your development so much that you get hopelessly far behind)... Scout first is only good if you are on a very large land mass with multiple AI's to fight for the goody huts.. safe to say this doesn't happen very often. You need to be more flexible in your thinking . This game you do however have neighours to save you out from the fate of the mehemed game and it looks like you can just settle your little strip oif land then take out ragnar with a force of mostly axemen.

And oyzar's right on all his micromanagement stuff. Pushing population and then going hammers is almost always better.

 

[Validator]

Your bureaucratic capital can work 18 cottages at 19 pop

Put the NE in sugar.

I'm thinking that there's a pretty good chance that the Financial Viking will be cottage spamming his capital. In that case it might be a good idea for Sisiutil to move his capital there. That would free up Moscow to become a first rate NE city.

 

[Validator]

The major calculation is whether or not Sisiutil can get a stack of 6-8 axes in place before Ragnar can get to longbows. If Nidaros has a couple of gem mines then it'll pay for its upkeep but it'll also have been boosting Ragnar's research.

Since Sisiutil is using the BetterAI mod I'm thinking he's going to need significantly more that 6-8 axes.

 

[OTAKUjbski]

i just gotta say i am savagly impressed by the missmicromanaging in the start... there is no reason to not grow as fast as possible. working plain forest / floodplains every other turn is stricly better than working the grassland forest(same yield over 2 turns cept 1 more commerce). After you grow you can also swich to a more hammer focused title's that are worked so you get the scout asa after growing... this would have let you gotten BW faster and hence been able to whip the worker asap(as i explained in the pregame thread) and basically come out the same as if you went with worker first... now it is waaaay too late... why the heck didnt you just stop after BW???? you should have whipped at once... getting out those early workers help soooo much it is not funny...

also much good the scouts did you... it is just like the mehemed game all over again(getting early scouts that slow your development so much that you get hopelessly far behind)... Scout first is only good if you are on a very large land mass with multiple AI's to fight for the goody huts.. safe to say this doesn't happen very often. You need to be more flexible in your thinking . This game you do however have neighours to save you out from the fate of the mehemed game and it looks like you can just settle your little strip oif land then take out ragnar with a force of mostly axemen.

Though I agree with nearly everything you stated, did you have to say it so ... harsh?

I'm thinking that there's a pretty good chance that the Financial Viking will be cottage spamming his capital. In that case it might be a good idea for Sisiutil to move his capital there. That would free up Moscow to become a first rate NE city.

This will be made even more evident if more than one Gem mine turns up in your new capital.

Moscow can support pretty good production, so it may best serve as a war factory in the early stages of this game.

 

[BARBEERIAN]

Here's what I would tech next:

Animal Husbandry > Wheel > Mysticism > Writing

Here's my dotmap and an overview:

1st City:

Because of your somewhat choked start taking out Nidaros early is critical to expansion. I'd settle to nab the cows, copper and (later) spices. It'll definitely be able to crank out axes quickly and early.

Personally here I would pre-road to the site as much as you can, then start mining the plains/forest hill adjacent to the copper and timing it to finish the turn you settle the city or shortly thereafter. Immediately work the mine and crank out 'Henge with a another chop. Again due to the choked position I think some early border pops will help you nab some much needed food in a few of the cities. Maybe also help 'expose' Nidaros to a few extra tiles worth of your roads from City #3 by forcing him to settle West of the 'incense desert'.

2nd City:

Snag the 3 Fish and the 2 Fur. Early commerce tiles from hunting are always nice. It'll be able to slave a very nice number of axes early. Once you get writing, immediately slave a library and work a pair of scientists for good measure.

3rd City:

Kind of a meh city with only the clams and incense but you do need to settle 1 city towards Ragnar to establish a nice base of operations to take Nidaros and this seems to be the least horsehockey position.

4th City:

Another hidden little Ice gem with 2 food and some early commerce tiles. Whip a library and run 2 scientists asap and it's a nice little science center for the early going.

5th:

Grab that wheat and mine some hills. Nothing special, but it'll get enough hammers to build troops.

6th: Farm the floodplain and do whatever witht he rest of the tiles. Again nothing special but you might as well work as many tiles in your area as possible.

 

[carl corey]

Just a note about number 3 on your map: you won't be able to shift ships through it if you place it that way. I'd rather have fewer ships and the ability to use them where needed and a #3 city in a canal position would do just that.

 

[Jet]

I'm with BARBEERIAN's dotmap, although instead of his 5 and 6 I'd settle 3E of Moscow for a versatile, well-fed city that can build units, or run specialists, or work cottages for Moscow.

Speaking of his #1, however you dotmap I wouldn't rule out farming over the cows later. It's a terrible thing to do to a cow but it would salvage the land out there.

Part of BARBEERIAN's dotmap is getting the triple fish, so it "commits" you to Caste System, which I think is fine as long as you anticipate it.

In the absence of any important information about Horses or Iron I'd settle BARBEERIAN's #1, then 3E of Moscow, then go kill Ragnar with axes.

For right now I'd suggest spamming some fogbusting warriors.

 

[IPEX-731BA5DD06]

A dissenting voice...*unbuttons shirt, tapes carpet to chest* "Why Why Why Deliaha??..........."

Why so many cities on such marginal land...........what the point...

What this site needs is a couple of production cities...So settle Bronze WITHOUT the need for a border pop, and claim Whales in long term 2 hammers with optics.

Commerace to finance the war and research....The Ice city with 3 fur and 2 seafood......

another city to Produce axe men...roaded up with Bronze city..

EVERTHING ELSE is marginal cities, or cities for the sake of cities...what are you avocating....a city spam ALA AI....Sneak a settler out in the middle of war also....

Its about the Land...And its MARGINAL...at best, why plan on settling on the Northeast only of the map....

Ragnar's capital, with 1 Gem mine on grassland....and Clams....speaks of a financial capital under Beauracy....as well, more 'Central' to the Future Empire of the Russians...

Dot maps are good....over dot mapping is bad, let the Cultural border expansions take up the marginal lands, if a resourse appears latter, well and good, just link up.

Final note, Ironiacally Russia was Initially settled by the Vikings Following the great River highway's through the lands...How apt that Ragnar, will provide the foundation stone for the foundation of the NEW RUSSIAN EMPIRE..

 

[BARBEERIAN]

Doesn't mean he has to settle them asap, but i find it best for your empire as a whole to work as close to every single tile possible. If a city can grow to size 5/6 it can slave buildings and troops enough to be profitable.

 

[EEE_BOY]

another late call for chariots ,they save time when units marching to distant land, hope horse appears nearby. for this map, its very hard to reinforce axe from your production city.

 

[Brave Jay]

A dissenting voice...*unbuttons shirt, tapes carpet to chest* "Why Why Why Deliaha??..........."

Why so many cities on such marginal land...........what the point...

What this site needs is a couple of production cities...So settle Bronze WITHOUT the need for a border pop, and claim Whales in long term 2 hammers with optics.

Commerace to finance the war and research....The Ice city with 3 fur and 2 seafood......

another city to Produce axe men...roaded up with Bronze city..

EVERTHING ELSE is marginal cities, or cities for the sake of cities...what are you avocating....a city spam ALA AI....Sneak a settler out in the middle of war also....

Its about the Land...And its MARGINAL...at best, why plan on settling on the Northeast only of the map....

Ragnar's capital, with 1 Gem mine on grassland....and Clams....speaks of a financial capital under Beauracy....as well, more 'Central' to the Future Empire of the Russians...

Dot maps are good....over dot mapping is bad, let the Cultural border expansions take up the marginal lands, if a resourse appears latter, well and good, just link up.

Final note, Ironiacally Russia was Initially settled by the Vikings Following the great River highway's through the lands...How apt that Ragnar, will provide the foundation stone for the foundation of the NEW RUSSIAN EMPIRE..

Very keen observation. With all the hints of warmongering, why did everyone go out and draw elaborate city spamming dot maps? I would just make the necessary cities now and back-fill any gaps for resources later.

 

[EEE_BOY]

they are possible city sties available for settle so we can pick up one for next city or the third city. but surely we won't settle all of them until late

 

[patagonia]

I'm thinking that there's a pretty good chance that the Financial Viking will be cottage spamming his capital. In that case it might be a good idea for Sisiutil to move his capital there. That would free up Moscow to become a first rate NE city.

I think Validator's talking a lot of sense, and I'd also go with his dotmap.

Settle green dot (bronze), then yellow dot for the extra happiness and commerce from those furs. You're not financial so they'll benefit you much more than floodplains cottages in the early running.

Then whip axes everywhere (plus a spear or two for stack protection) and hit Ragnar hard and early. The furs at yellow dot will give you the commerce you need to stay afloat during and after the war, so Moscow should be farmed rather than cottaged, which has the benefit of enhancing whip production and dovetailing nicely with relocating the capital to Nidaros and running oodles of scientists in Moscow for the remainder of the game.

Nidaros is also a bottleneck, so taking it will allow you to backfill other locations as they become economically viable.

 

[IPEX-731BA5DD06]

Maybe its me, but I never and I mean never well hardly ever go back and back fill city sites even when covered by my cultural influence..

Its just more maintance...each one you build NOW adds to the marginal cost of cities you capture in the future, who are mature, have infastucture, even with a court house they may add 8+ gold to costs, along with population, and settling any new city at this point, adds 17+ costs, a very high marginal cost for a marginal city.

I'm thinking LONG term, conquer the who continent/Islands what ever has been given, you'll be RAISING marginal cities then, so why build them NOW..

If a resourse appears, just road it and link in cultural borders, if and ONLY IF, it appears NOW, OUTSIDE of Cultural borders, and its NEEDED..NOW...would a city be justified...ie horses/iron. A random pop of precious metals only happens in a mined hill, and worked too I think...??

Ragnar has BUILT A city for you, proberly 3-4 by time those bronze axes are sharpened....(Hmm wouldn't they blunt quickly...alloy??) anyway, give Ragnar a taste of Axe diplomacy, maybe even point out the options at the point of a sword..


But...GO WEST YOUNG MAN........well south west.....BUT GO THERE.....



The discussion on uses of Specialist Economy and Cossacks, inspired me to play my own game, Vanilla civ using the latest AI, as of 12/Feb/07
I killed research around the time I was teching to nationalism...seemed to take forever..got Liberalism first, and gunpowder before then...took Military tradition as free tech, had killed one civ with swords..didn't take machinary as wanted to lightbulb Liberalism..Ho hum..prefer maces...though swords did a fine job...Mass produced Cossacks, they took out remaining 2 civs in record time...taking 40% cultral cities with few loses, against longbowmen and muskets/samurai..Mansu Mana tech leader, gone in 20 yr's, Tokugowa, gone in 2 wars totalling 50 Yr's..Crazy....they ruled for 300 yr's my Cossacks..as other continent was 3 religions major and 2 minor, and backward in tech..

Cossacks against Non rifleman are CRAZY ACE.... and a stack of 40+ of them is just over kill.......Just for "Mr, I don't like a fair fight "

 

[Brave Jay]

Maybe its me, but I never and I mean never well hardly ever go back and back fill city sites even when covered by my cultural influence..

Its just more maintance...each one you build NOW adds to the marginal cost of cities you capture in the future, who are mature, have infastucture, even with a court house they may add 8+ gold to costs, along with population, and settling any new city at this point, adds 17+ costs, a very high marginal cost for a marginal city.

I'm thinking LONG term, conquer the who continent/Islands what ever has been given, you'll be RAISING marginal cities then, so why build them NOW..

If a resourse appears, just road it and link in cultural borders, if and ONLY IF, it appears NOW, OUTSIDE of Cultural borders, and its NEEDED..NOW...would a city be justified...ie horses/iron. A random pop of precious metals only happens in a mined hill, and worked too I think...??

Ragnar has BUILT A city for you, proberly 3-4 by time those bronze axes are sharpened....(Hmm wouldn't they blunt quickly...alloy??) anyway, give Ragnar a taste of Axe diplomacy, maybe even point out the options at the point of a sword..


But...GO WEST YOUNG MAN........well south west.....BUT GO THERE.....



The discussion on uses of Specialist Economy and Cossacks, inspired me to play my own game, Vanilla civ using the latest AI, as of 12/Feb/07
I killed research around the time I was teching to nationalism...seemed to take forever..got Liberalism first, and gunpowder before then...took Military tradition as free tech, had killed one civ with swords..didn't take machinary as wanted to lightbulb Liberalism..Ho hum..prefer maces...though swords did a fine job...Mass produced Cossacks, they took out remaining 2 civs in record time...taking 40% cultral cities with few loses, against longbowmen and muskets/samurai..Mansu Mana tech leader, gone in 20 yr's, Tokugowa, gone in 2 wars totalling 50 Yr's..Crazy....they ruled for 300 yr's my Cossacks..as other continent was 3 religions major and 2 minor, and backward in tech..

Cossacks against Non rifleman are CRAZY ACE.... and a stack of 40+ of them is just over kill.......Just for "Mr, I don't like a fair fight "

More cities do not just equal more maintenance costs. I don't like to squeeze them in too tight, but if i can get some good hammer yield, which will help in building a faster military, I will build the city. also, some of the seemingly weak sites can be strong coastal fishing villages that will more than pay for themselves.(once you get banking and build some banks in commerce cities, maintenance worries are a thing of the past) I can see your point too, if your going for straight conquests. but i think in the long run, more cities make a more powerful civ and leave you open to more victory condition choices.