I would not normally use a chariot rush so if thats possible I'd be curious how to effectively do one. With the lack of handy metal this sounds like a good strategy to take out Joao assuming he isn't on a hill. If that is the end of the continent then you can dominate it at your whim afterwords. I'd also prepare a settler over building the GW.
ALC Game 18, Take 2: Spain/Isabella
- Thread starter Sisiutil
- Start date
It's pretty easy to do a Chariot rush, their dirt cheap, cheaper then axemen therefore you can build more, they move twice as fast so there there you can reach your target faster and suicidal Chariots have a withdrawal chance so you have a chance of not losing them and you can keep them for later upgrades to knights etc.
The only down side is they have a lower strength value and can't promote down the City Raider line, but you can make that up with numbers (since they're cheap) and high chance of survival.
The only down side is they have a lower strength value and can't promote down the City Raider line, but you can make that up with numbers (since they're cheap) and high chance of survival.
Fair enough. I suppose I just tend to go the axe / sword route and if that fails then figured its too late for chariot because they are too weak. I usually turtle at that point and go into builder mode and try for tech. Next game I'll try out chariots over swords if it looks to be appropriate.
I think the great luck with popping huts is the key here as its still relatively early and we know iron is unlikely to be close.
I think the great luck with popping huts is the key here as its still relatively early and we know iron is unlikely to be close.
slobberinbear
Ursine Skald
Another long post, sorry. I just get going. 
Let me just say you are an excellent scouter, goody huts or no. Having this much map info this early is wonderful. I think it's likely that either it's just you, Augie, and Joao on the continent, or that anyone else is a long way away on the other side of Augie. It's hard to say for sure, but Joao looks cornered on the end of the continent.
And speaking of Joao ... I don't see any strategic resources in his area. I find it unlikely that he has none. That means they're either in the fog of war in his Lisbon's BFC, or you can't see it, because it's iron.
Joao being cornered + Joao maybe not having strategic resources now + Isabella wanting to kick the snot out of Portugal = Joao on a pike. Joao should be rushed.
I don't like the chariot rush, though. A strength of 4 against a unpromoted fortified archer with just 20% cultural defense is 4:5.85 odds, not counting first strike. That sounds like it would require at least 3:1 numerical superiority, (maybe more if the cultural defenses are higher or they have CG I promotions) and even if you had surviving withdrawal chariots, they would be so badly hurt that they would be unable to contribue to a second round of battle, even if the burned a promotion for the healing. Lisbon is heavily forested, so the chariot movement is less usable. I suppose it could work if you threw a lot of trees and population at it right now. Could 10 Chariots built in the next 20-25 turns pull it off?
Personally, the chariot rush has never worked for me unless I had a chariot UU, but I'll defer to those who know better.
Dealing with Joao: I see three options:
(1) Block Joao with two cities (the two spots south and SE of Madrid on EEE Boy's map look good) while teching to Iron Working (then Wheel/Pottery) and hope you find Iron (which I think is possible, given that there are no visible strategic resources near Joao). If there is no Iron, then the rush is probably off (assuming Joao has metal) and you would need to settle a fourth city near one of the two copper resources. If there is Iron, rush him with a 50/50 mix of axes and swords and a few chariots for good measure.
(2) Research the Wheel and Pottery for granaries while going for the Copper due east of Madrid and try an axe rush, knowing that Joao will quickly fill in the gap between you with a city or two, and that your axes may have to take out 4-5 total cities. This may be asking too much for axemen generated from two cities, depending on Joao's troop types. Oddly enough, an axe rush may actually be easier if Joao DOES have metal -- fewer archers to kill ...
(3) REX as in (1), but tech to a religion and convert Joao while refusing open borders. Once you feel secure against a Joao backstab, continue REXing to block Augie as best as possible and gear up for medieval war.
Wonders: Stonehenge may make some sense on this map, since you will be in border wars pretty quickly. Oracle looks quite easy with the marble handy. With the gold handy for research, you may be able to do a Theology slingshot depending on how quickly the Emperor AI gets the Oracle, grabbing a war civic and a religion to boot. (tech path: wheel -- pottery -- writing -- poly -- priesthood -- mono). This could really boost Izzy's war effort -- I don't know how Joao could stop a posse of CR II Swords and Axes ...
My vote is option 1 (block Joao with 2 cities while teching for iron), then going for a Theology slingshot. With Madrid up and running and marble hooked up (and a few timely Inquisitorial whips
) the Oracle would complete very quickly and not significantly delay the war effort.
Let me just say you are an excellent scouter, goody huts or no. Having this much map info this early is wonderful. I think it's likely that either it's just you, Augie, and Joao on the continent, or that anyone else is a long way away on the other side of Augie. It's hard to say for sure, but Joao looks cornered on the end of the continent.
And speaking of Joao ... I don't see any strategic resources in his area. I find it unlikely that he has none. That means they're either in the fog of war in his Lisbon's BFC, or you can't see it, because it's iron.
Joao being cornered + Joao maybe not having strategic resources now + Isabella wanting to kick the snot out of Portugal = Joao on a pike. Joao should be rushed.
I don't like the chariot rush, though. A strength of 4 against a unpromoted fortified archer with just 20% cultural defense is 4:5.85 odds, not counting first strike. That sounds like it would require at least 3:1 numerical superiority, (maybe more if the cultural defenses are higher or they have CG I promotions) and even if you had surviving withdrawal chariots, they would be so badly hurt that they would be unable to contribue to a second round of battle, even if the burned a promotion for the healing. Lisbon is heavily forested, so the chariot movement is less usable. I suppose it could work if you threw a lot of trees and population at it right now. Could 10 Chariots built in the next 20-25 turns pull it off?
Personally, the chariot rush has never worked for me unless I had a chariot UU, but I'll defer to those who know better.
Dealing with Joao: I see three options:
(1) Block Joao with two cities (the two spots south and SE of Madrid on EEE Boy's map look good) while teching to Iron Working (then Wheel/Pottery) and hope you find Iron (which I think is possible, given that there are no visible strategic resources near Joao). If there is no Iron, then the rush is probably off (assuming Joao has metal) and you would need to settle a fourth city near one of the two copper resources. If there is Iron, rush him with a 50/50 mix of axes and swords and a few chariots for good measure.
(2) Research the Wheel and Pottery for granaries while going for the Copper due east of Madrid and try an axe rush, knowing that Joao will quickly fill in the gap between you with a city or two, and that your axes may have to take out 4-5 total cities. This may be asking too much for axemen generated from two cities, depending on Joao's troop types. Oddly enough, an axe rush may actually be easier if Joao DOES have metal -- fewer archers to kill ...
(3) REX as in (1), but tech to a religion and convert Joao while refusing open borders. Once you feel secure against a Joao backstab, continue REXing to block Augie as best as possible and gear up for medieval war.
Wonders: Stonehenge may make some sense on this map, since you will be in border wars pretty quickly. Oracle looks quite easy with the marble handy. With the gold handy for research, you may be able to do a Theology slingshot depending on how quickly the Emperor AI gets the Oracle, grabbing a war civic and a religion to boot. (tech path: wheel -- pottery -- writing -- poly -- priesthood -- mono). This could really boost Izzy's war effort -- I don't know how Joao could stop a posse of CR II Swords and Axes ...
My vote is option 1 (block Joao with 2 cities while teching for iron), then going for a Theology slingshot. With Madrid up and running and marble hooked up (and a few timely Inquisitorial whips
) the Oracle would complete very quickly and not significantly delay the war effort.Cabledawg
King
Im a big fan of settling on sugar when that decision includes getting other resources. It makes for a faster growing early city and you wont miss the 1 extra 
that you would have to wait for calender anyway.
I would stop the wall now, chop out a settler and send him to yellow....except, 2 tiles W of where you have it. Its still riverside, claims pigs, more hills and....drumroll plz.....itll be the founder of Judaism. Joao will not be able to expand north. As a bonus....with those floodplains...itll be your Wall Street. And if youre gonna quarry the marble anyway, why not have a city be working it.
Once yellow is founded...finish Great Wall. all the while having a warrior fogbust blue. Settle blue as per your dotmap.
Now to block off Julius....settle on the sugar. You get the corn and copper.
I dont like your red at all...too much overlap. Instead, settle on the north sugar. It claims another sugar, fish, and horse. After that, your riverside Ironworks can go right in the center of the map....can ya see it?
that you would have to wait for calender anyway.I would stop the wall now, chop out a settler and send him to yellow....except, 2 tiles W of where you have it. Its still riverside, claims pigs, more hills and....drumroll plz.....itll be the founder of Judaism. Joao will not be able to expand north. As a bonus....with those floodplains...itll be your Wall Street. And if youre gonna quarry the marble anyway, why not have a city be working it.
Once yellow is founded...finish Great Wall. all the while having a warrior fogbust blue. Settle blue as per your dotmap.
Now to block off Julius....settle on the sugar. You get the corn and copper.
I dont like your red at all...too much overlap. Instead, settle on the north sugar. It claims another sugar, fish, and horse. After that, your riverside Ironworks can go right in the center of the map....can ya see it?
Gocho
Warlord
Neighbor that close, horses in the fat cross?
You have got to chariot rush him! Also it's Joao and he deserves it.
You have got to chariot rush him! Also it's Joao and he deserves it.
This is going to be a interesting game. We want war, more war this time. I want to see plenty of upgraded siege engines. Right now I would stop with the great wall and get some settlers out otherwise the AI is going to beat you to important spots. Has anybody switched to slavery yet? If yes, then start the settler.
before the naysayers get too into this... you can expand and pull off the great wall at the same time. it is only 4 forest chops to completion!!! might be faster if you get those horses and gold hooked up for some extra hammerage. you could always whip out an extra worker and use the overflow towards the wall
you'll be glad you did when you can steal math from caesar while you're doing a theology slingshot
as far as jao goes.. wall him off and give him tribute if he asks or he will become a thorn in your side.. even if you share religions. I'd finish him off a little later and don't ever open borders with him. once you plop down that marble city expand north and east quickly. you should be able to get to 4-5 cities before needing to think about taking out portugal. by then you'll have the industrial capacity to crank out nessessary units.
NaZ
you'll be glad you did when you can steal math from caesar while you're doing a theology slingshot
as far as jao goes.. wall him off and give him tribute if he asks or he will become a thorn in your side.. even if you share religions. I'd finish him off a little later and don't ever open borders with him. once you plop down that marble city expand north and east quickly. you should be able to get to 4-5 cities before needing to think about taking out portugal. by then you'll have the industrial capacity to crank out nessessary units.
NaZ
Getting the gold online together with the horses and the pigs would certainly fasten stuff up (no-brainer). But it will take approximately 20 turns to complete all these. A whip in between for another worker could be a good idea so you can finish the great wall. I haven't got BtS yet but the spy points from it are as I understand nothing to sneeze at.
r_rolo1
King of myself
Well, so far this is historically accurate ( D. João II and Isabella hated eachother ( in spite of being family ) )....
I would agree that a chariot rush to Portuguese lands would be sound. Lisbon looks like a heavyly forested site and the chops would be very helpful ( or to keep them for reserves and National park ). I would not mind with the great wall: you have more to build now.
About AC: I don't think that he'll expand towards you ASAP. Between you and him there is a lot of jungle and AI are somewhat adverse to go to jungles if they have better tiles to adquire ( but they also like to push humans
).
Yellow dot looks good, very good indeed. Settle it ASAP
I would agree that a chariot rush to Portuguese lands would be sound. Lisbon looks like a heavyly forested site and the chops would be very helpful ( or to keep them for reserves and National park ). I would not mind with the great wall: you have more to build now.
About AC: I don't think that he'll expand towards you ASAP. Between you and him there is a lot of jungle and AI are somewhat adverse to go to jungles if they have better tiles to adquire ( but they also like to push humans
).Yellow dot looks good, very good indeed. Settle it ASAP
chariot rush works wonder if u don't delay too much, considering u need to acquire copper using your second city then connect it( far distance) standard axe rush may cost u more hammer than chariot.
if u want AC to expand toward u then take his cities by force, then the canal city can wait, but this makes the front line against AC very long and AC can easily reinforce those cities west of the canal. if u want to block enough land for your empire, u need to hurry to get that spot (at least hold a settler in that spot to scout AC, settle the city if he sends a settler towards u, and u don't pay maintainance early). better secure more land for settlling in this case. the Blue city is also higher priority since it provides metal resourse and can pay for itself once u get IW.
Pyramid: yes. are we agreed to run SE or CE this time? suppose we are running SE, pyramid is the only wonder needed if we really want some wonder construction in the early time. so the stone pink city could come as the third city and linked by coast( we have sailing).
two GLs: yes. 1, another wonder would be the great lighthouse as 2/3 cities we are going to build is coastal, that makes REX much easier because every coastal city instantly gets connected, and can pay itself once hit pop 2 by trade route income. and we have the tech available by the 'God'. 2, The great library certainly helps to lightbulb to libralism earlier and easier, with marble in hand it's definitely worth a try.
Shwedagon Paya: yes, like pyramid, this wonder helps to utilise the spiritual trait fully and earlier. so we can focus on purely GS neneration by getting taoism as our religion and delay monotheism until later or never.
oracle: no. since we didn't clime up the religious tech tree, the oracle might not be ours.
stonehenge and GW: no. hammer put into those wonders would be better to make more chariots to take out joao or make fog-buster.
if u want AC to expand toward u then take his cities by force, then the canal city can wait, but this makes the front line against AC very long and AC can easily reinforce those cities west of the canal. if u want to block enough land for your empire, u need to hurry to get that spot (at least hold a settler in that spot to scout AC, settle the city if he sends a settler towards u, and u don't pay maintainance early). better secure more land for settlling in this case. the Blue city is also higher priority since it provides metal resourse and can pay for itself once u get IW.
Pyramid: yes. are we agreed to run SE or CE this time? suppose we are running SE, pyramid is the only wonder needed if we really want some wonder construction in the early time. so the stone pink city could come as the third city and linked by coast( we have sailing).
two GLs: yes. 1, another wonder would be the great lighthouse as 2/3 cities we are going to build is coastal, that makes REX much easier because every coastal city instantly gets connected, and can pay itself once hit pop 2 by trade route income. and we have the tech available by the 'God'. 2, The great library certainly helps to lightbulb to libralism earlier and easier, with marble in hand it's definitely worth a try.
Shwedagon Paya: yes, like pyramid, this wonder helps to utilise the spiritual trait fully and earlier. so we can focus on purely GS neneration by getting taoism as our religion and delay monotheism until later or never.
oracle: no. since we didn't clime up the religious tech tree, the oracle might not be ours.
stonehenge and GW: no. hammer put into those wonders would be better to make more chariots to take out joao or make fog-buster.
patagonia
Emperor
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2006
- Messages
- 1,025
An immediate chariot rush is the best way to deal with Joao pre-construction. To be successful you'll need to get cracking before founding a second city though. The key here is speed, which spending time on a settler and escort will cost you.
Build/whipping a worker while getting pigs, horses and gold online, then chopping a barracks and spitting out chariots looks like the best way to me. I'd have one of the workers (guarded by a chariot) roading towards Joao while the other chops to speed construction of your army. Joao will have 2-3 cities by the time you've got about 10 chariots, but thanks to their speed he should only have time to whip one archer before Lisbon falls. The other city/cities will be too weak and small to defend themselves after that.
Build/whipping a worker while getting pigs, horses and gold online, then chopping a barracks and spitting out chariots looks like the best way to me. I'd have one of the workers (guarded by a chariot) roading towards Joao while the other chops to speed construction of your army. Joao will have 2-3 cities by the time you've got about 10 chariots, but thanks to their speed he should only have time to whip one archer before Lisbon falls. The other city/cities will be too weak and small to defend themselves after that.
patagonia
Emperor
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2006
- Messages
- 1,025
My view on the chariot rush is that with a close neighbour and horses in your capital, it's viable and tends to pay-off better in the mid-term than waiting for swords/cats. It's more effective with war chariots/immortals, but they're by no means essential.
One point I would raise though (forgot to mention it earlier), is that if you plan on rushing Joao early (pre-alphabet), then don't waste any EP on him. Divert it all towards Rome.
chariots works even joao gets metal in his BFC and build one spearman, we prepare for war early and we could pillage his metal.
I am 100% sure lisbon is NOT on a hill since when the warrior is on the spot NE of joao's corn, he can't see his capital!
therefore joao could die easily by chariot rush, and the pink canal city to block AC is much more worthwhile.
That game seems decided from the start with that great initial location and the insane luck getting all those techs for free. Great Spy tech stealing will only make it worse, i.e. perfectly boring.
I'd find it rather silly if, after the complaints about the AP cheese, you went for the Great Wall to get yourself some Great Spy tech-stealing cheese. Would we then get Isabella game #3, the edition for the lactose intolerant?
I'd find it rather silly if, after the complaints about the AP cheese, you went for the Great Wall to get yourself some Great Spy tech-stealing cheese. Would we then get Isabella game #3, the edition for the lactose intolerant?
chariot rush works great in 3000 BC.
too late to do one now IMHO.
Just one question, why would you settle marble city 2 tiles away from the marble? the tiles you gain by doing so are desert tiles if I see right.
Of course, if these are FPs it's different and just keep going
too late to do one now IMHO.
Just one question, why would you settle marble city 2 tiles away from the marble? the tiles you gain by doing so are desert tiles if I see right.
Of course, if these are FPs it's different and just keep going
Guardian_PL
Emperor
- Joined
- Nov 4, 2006
- Messages
- 1,231
yeah, well, I know it's cool to kill other civ's asap (that's why I loove Incas 
), but I had one situation like this before, when I connected horses and started to crank out Immortals Mr Phrederick just finished filling his cities with swords and axes
The Map:
Don't listen to those against Oracle. You have marble (in the same time Your marble city will cut off Joao and leave him isolated), and You have GEMS! Gems+Gold+Forge from Metal Casting Oracle slingshot = +4
I'd go rex a bit, stone city, marble city, gems city. After that I'd kill Joao with cats/swords while teching to engineering to kill Augustus. I'm not sure that You need Pyramids at all, but stone will surely come up handy to build walls/citadels.
Boy, what a start...
EDIT
@cabert
), but I had one situation like this before, when I connected horses and started to crank out Immortals Mr Phrederick just finished filling his cities with swords and axes The Map:
Don't listen to those against Oracle. You have marble (in the same time Your marble city will cut off Joao and leave him isolated), and You have GEMS! Gems+Gold+Forge from Metal Casting Oracle slingshot = +4
I'd go rex a bit, stone city, marble city, gems city. After that I'd kill Joao with cats/swords while teching to engineering to kill Augustus. I'm not sure that You need Pyramids at all, but stone will surely come up handy to build walls/citadels.
Boy, what a start...
EDIT
@cabert
Point taken, but the marble city won't be that terrible (flood plains, seafood, hills), and will cut Joao offJust one question, why would you settle marble city 2 tiles away from the marble? the tiles you gain by doing so are desert tiles if I see right.
Of course, if these are FPs it's different and just keep going
Azander
Fairy
Nothing wrong with a little luck, and we'll need it on this difficulty level
chariot rush works great in 3000 BC.
too late to do one now IMHO.
Just one question, why would you settle marble city 2 tiles away from the marble? the tiles you gain by doing so are desert tiles if I see right.
Of course, if these are FPs it's different and just keep going
not late if he doesn't waste hammer on the GW.
it has the river fresh water and extra two flood plains, remember river means hammer from levee in the industrial era.
recently, Unconquered Sun's 'Justinian's University: Defeating the Deities' thread inspired me to aggressively settle city to block chunk of lands for later settlement. hence the canal city really is important for strategic reasons.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=242211
