ALC Game 21: Zulus/Shaka

[iamnleth]

@ Say my name
Ooops-that will teach me not to look at all of the screenshots.

Then it is doubtful that Chem & Steel will be enough to get Peter to DoW DeGaulle.

Is there a chance to get DeGaulle to DoW Peter if you trade DeGaulle Chem, Steel & Constitution? Then join in the dogpile on DeGaulle?

I don't think either will declare war on the other for any price: they're at friendly relations with one another.

 

[Mesousa]

Just wondering, but how in hell did Wang Kon place a city literally in the middle of Peter's territory? Was it Liberated to him? Or was it just there and Peter had to deal with it?

I know it's not, but it would be fun if that was the AP city. Vatican city, surrounded by Italy ... er, Russia.

+25 relations for Peter/Hammurabi, that's pretty impressive ... good thing you're not playing with Permanent Alliances, or that might have ended up differently from a master/vassal pairing.

 

[NintendoTogepi]

Hmm...Hammurabi and Peter are really good friends.

Also

Woo! Go Buffalo...thanks for not razing it

 

[uncarved block]

Apache is definitely a Barb name for a city. Must have cost Wang an arm and leg in maintenance over the years.

Well, this looks like an interesting pickle. If you go after De Gaulle, it seems very, very likely that you'll end up fighting Peter and Hammy as well, with two less than powerful vassals on your flanks. The safest play would be, I'd guess, to try and turn the corner tech wise with the military, but with Hammy back there driving Peter, I don't see that happening. I'd suggest doing some scouting and seeing more or less what you're up against, and perhaps settling in for a short defensive war, if Peter and De Gaulle look like they'll attack Thracian first. If not, well, I dunno what's next.

 

[Sisiutil]

Well, this looks like an interesting pickle. If you go after De Gaulle, it seems very, very likely that you'll end up fighting Peter and Hammy as well, with two less than powerful vassals on your flanks.

I actually doubt this. Both De Gaulle and I have "Friendly" ratings with Peter, but mine is far higher. I think Peter will either sit it out or dogpile on De Gaulle. Nevertheless, some caution is a good idea, so I'll reinforce the cities near the Russian border.

 

[pigswill]

I've probably got this one wrong but I thought that AI behaviour was related to their attitude to a team rather than an individual. So if Peter is eg +12 with Sisiutil but 0 with Wang and -3 with Washington then the de facto relationship with Sisiutil's team is (12 +0 -3)/3 = 3.

 

[KaytieKat]

I've probably got this one wrong but I thought that AI behaviour was related to their attitude to a team rather than an individual. So if Peter is eg +12 with Sisiutil but 0 with Wang and -3 with Washington then the de facto relationship with Sisiutil's team is (12 +0 -3)/3 = 3.

Hi

That ALWAYS confused me at first BUT apparently Vassals DONT count as being your "team". I am not even sure permant alliances count as a "team" since they turned off now by default so I cant even remember last time I played in game that had a PA hehe.

I THINK only way to have a team for sure is make custom game and then assign the civ slots where you pick your leader and civ. You noitce the slots normally say like "team 1" "team 2" etc. well if you like two or threee or more of the slots ALL say "team 1" or whatever then THAT is what game means when it says team hehe. But unless you do that before the game then each and every civ is its own individual team even if some are vassals to others.

Kaytie

 

[Bhruic]

I've probably got this one wrong but I thought that AI behaviour was related to their attitude to a team rather than an individual. So if Peter is eg +12 with Sisiutil but 0 with Wang and -3 with Washington then the de facto relationship with Sisiutil's team is (12 +0 -3)/3 = 3.

Very close, but it doesn't use numbers, it uses relationship level. Using your numbers, for example, it would be (friendly + cautious + annoyed) / 3 = cautious (it'd round down). So Peter would be friendly with Sisiutil, but cautious with "Team Sisiutil".

Bh

 

[Morgawr]

Bhruic is right. So, Peter is Friendly to Sisutil, and Cautious to both vassals Wang Kon & Washington. That averages to either Pleased or Cautious, I am not entirely sure. But it actually does not matter because Peter is a big backstabber: he'll go to war for anyone even if he's Cautious toward them, and against someone he's even Pleased with.

The problem is, that works against your favor because he's currently Friendly to De Gaulle at +6 (tons of invisible +ive modifiers there). That's very borderline Friendly and fluctuates every turn so I recommend checking every turn to see if ever drops to Pleased. If not, you could try to do a civics change to remove Peter's +ive modifiers vs. De Gaulle. But even then, you would need sufficient techs to bribe Peter to war with De Gaulle and you only have Chemistry atm.

So the bottom line is, it could be possible to play Peter against De Gaulle but the way things are right now, he's more than ready to be bribed by De Gaulle to DoW on you if you attack De Gaulle.

 

[Kev]

I don't think it's really all that necessary to have Peter/Hammy join in against Chuckie. Especially if it meant gifting them key military techs - remember we'll have to take those guys on too at some point, and with Hammy teching nicely giving them a boost like that could prove more difficult later.

The trick is to keep Peter and Hammy from declaring on us at the behest of Chas. Can a gift request be thrown in there to Pete at some point to create a 10-turn deal where they cannot declare war. I always forget the logistics of those types of deals.

I'm wondering if we'll get the offer to give Cheju to Korea (it's a former Korean city, no?) Not that we need a huge bump with them, but it will give our financial vassal more cities and land to work with and hopefully get us some more techs.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Sounds good,
Since No Tech Brokering is on it might be worth beefing up Washington and Wangs Military Techs, they are currently solidly behind you and you only need to keep a few... getting them up to Rifles themselves might be good to allow for a solid defence (and it will boost the power rating of "Team Sisitul")

This would be especially true of Wang, he's your front lines with the French, and wouldn't it be nice for French Cavalry to run into Protective Korean Rifles

[as a side note you have an interesting Military team, Agressive with Protective and Charismatic Vassals]


Also Don't give either of them Liberalism... or at least keep them running Bureaucracy, That keeps Moscow happier with them. (and happier with you by extent) [also keep them in Islam, no FR]

 

[Sisiutil]

I'm wondering if we'll get the offer to give Cheju to Korea (it's a former Korean city, no?) Not that we need a huge bump with them, but it will give our financial vassal more cities and land to work with and hopefully get us some more techs.

I just want to be cautious there; Wang capitulated quickly, so he's very close to where he needs to be to break away. Of course if he loses a city or two during the war, that would make a substantial difference.

 

[Sisiutil]

Sounds good,
Since No Tech Brokering is on it might be worth beefing up Washington and Wangs Military Techs, they are currently solidly behind you and you only need to keep a few... getting them up to Rifles themselves might be good to allow for a solid defence (and it will boost the power rating of "Team Sisitul")

This would be especially true of Wang, he's your front lines with the French, and wouldn't it be nice for French Cavalry to run into Protective Korean Rifles

[as a side note you have an interesting Military team, Agressive with Protective and Charismatic Vassals]

All right, I should have Steel there soon to provide something to trade to them for any techs they have, and of course I can direct their research away from any techs I want to obtain on my own to trade to them. I assume that beefing up my vassals' power ratings will help keep Peter and Hammy at bay?

 

[KrikkitTwo]

All right, I should have Steel there soon to provide something to trade to them for any techs they have, and of course I can direct their research away from any techs I want to obtain on my own to trade to them. I assume that beefing up my vassals' power ratings will help keep Peter and Hammy at bay?

not sure but I think it will (it really should if Firaxis thought it through)

 

[Airefuego]

First up - nice round, and still in 1st place!

This would be especially true of Wang, he's your front lines with the French, and wouldn't it be nice for French Cavalry to run into Protective Korean Rifles

Looks like De Gaulle already had one bad experience with protective Wang - the power graph shows that he sufferered a big dip during that war, despite taking one Wang city (Chenju). By contrast, we went up in power while gaining Korean cities.

If Wang can be boosted further, maybe your buffer zone - sorry, his borders - will hold well.

 

[Airefuego]

Looking at the map now, I think that though the focus on defense at Thracian is a good idea, perhaps my stack is in the wrong place. It should move into Korean territory, to Pusan (sp?). From there, I can sweep west-to-east, taking Cheju, Uzbek, and Avignon in short order before doing a quarter-turn to attack Chartres. That's good land, too, and I would no longer be dependent on Peter for Dye.

I agree with this strategy and suggest one additional refinement.

If I read the map correctly, de Gaulle has only one source of iron. It's very close to Wang's borders, too. Maybe you could consider a small fast pillaging stack to break out of Korea heading for the French iron at the start of the war. It won't help with De Gaulle's UU, but it will stop him building more knights - and cannon, if he gets to steel.

 

[r_rolo1]

^^I would let the iron alone... it is better to let him produce knights ( that rifles chew and spit out ) than forcing him to think on better units ....

 

[Airefuego]

I'd rather he have musketeers (str 9, move 2) than knights (str 10, move 2, and flanking against siege)

 

[Daedal]

This is looking really interesting. I haven't looked at the save file, but are there a lot of obsolete units running around? Somebody above suggested gifting those to Wang and I agree with that completely. Wang could prove an invaluable ally in the coming war due to his location and relative strength. Might even be worth building cheap units to gift to him. Good thing you didn't completely level him last round!

 

[Chrispy]

Sounds good,
Since No Tech Brokering is on it might be worth beefing up Washington and Wangs Military Techs, they are currently solidly behind you and you only need to keep a few... getting them up to Rifles themselves might be good to allow for a solid defence (and it will boost the power rating of "Team Sisitul")

This would be especially true of Wang, he's your front lines with the French, and wouldn't it be nice for French Cavalry to run into Protective Korean Rifles

[as a side note you have an interesting Military team, Agressive with Protective and Charismatic Vassals]


Also Don't give either of them Liberalism... or at least keep them running Bureaucracy, That keeps Moscow happier with them. (and happier with you by extent) [also keep them in Islam, no FR]

Some good ideas here, although it will take some time to get Korea to rifling, as they don't have Printing Press right now.

I like the idea of keeping Liberalism away from the vassals to keep Peter happy; Liberalism is one of my favorite trading chips at this point and I would probably trade it to the vassals at this point without thinking about civics and relations with Peter. Plus, you can direct research away from Liberalism, and I think it only costs them the chance to research Communism.