ALC Game 21: Zulus/Shaka

[Artichoker]

Peter is higher in score than DeGaulle, by a substantial amount.

And now that he shares a border with you, maybe you should think about trimming him down.

 

[patagonia]

Peter is higher in score than DeGaulle, by a substantial amount.

And now that he shares a border with you, maybe you should think about trimming him down.

A big chunk of Peter's score is due to him having Hammurabi as a voluntary vassal, so he's not quite the runaway he appears.

Targeting De Gaulle next makes the most sense to me, due to the ability to strike straight at his core cities through Korea. With a combination of cannon and spies (no point hoarding EP if you're aiming to capitulate) you should be able to make pretty quick progress in city capture while Wang bears the brunt of his counter-attack and pillaging.

 

[Winston Hughes]

One way or another, the coming war is going to lead into the final showdown.

Even if Peter doesn't join the war against you, once De Gaulle has capitulated you'll be looking to the Russian lands soon enough anyway. The time for development will soon be over - from the next DoW until the end of the game it's all about getting troops to the front line.

For the war against France, you should bear in mind that it's just the prelude to the big finale, and focus your efforts on securing the French capitulation as quickly and as cheaply as possible. If that means razing decent cities, then so be it - you only need to keep enough to claim the land. Also, if you can avoid destroying most of De Gaulle's army whilst gaining his submission, all the better.

As for the suggestion that you should gift units to your vassals, I'd argue against it unless upkeep costs are becoming a problem. A unit in the hands of a human player is worth at least 2-3 units in the hands of an AI leader - they can't do a decent active defence, and are very bad at judging priorities or choosing the best spots to garrison their troops. You'll do a better job of defending your vassals than they will themselves, so keep those troops under your own control.

 

[Sisiutil]

This is looking really interesting. I haven't looked at the save file, but are there a lot of obsolete units running around? Somebody above suggested gifting those to Wang and I agree with that completely. Wang could prove an invaluable ally in the coming war due to his location and relative strength. Might even be worth building cheap units to gift to him. Good thing you didn't completely level him last round!

In addition to Winston Hughes' comments regarding giving units to vassals, I feel obliged to point out that my obsolete units are serving an invaluable function: they're keeping cities like Chicago and New York from going into revolt because of my vassals' cultural pressure. We were worried about that for Chicago in particular, but thanks to the 8-10 units garrisoned there, it hasn't experienced a revolt. (Though I do keep getting those pop-ups asking me to give it back to George... as if!)

 

[Daedal]

Fair enough. I suppose its easier to give troops to the AI later if needed than it is to take them back...

 

[Gr8scott]

I thought the reason to give out-dated units to vassals was that they could take advantage of the huge upgrade discount that the AI gets.

I would not give them anything that they couldn't readily upgrade. I agree that the same unit in the hands of the AI is much inferior. However, if the AI upgrades it by two or three eras, that can make a difference

GS

 

[Sisiutil]

Round 9: 1704 AD to 1740 AD (18 turns)

Hmmm, very short rounds right now! But this game is building towards its climax, methinks. And yes, I've very quickly reached an important decision point.

As I began the round, I intended to give Rifling to both of my vassals in preparation for the upcoming war with France... then I realized I couldn't! No Tech Brokering meant that I could neither trade Replaceable Parts nor Rifling to them, since I'd acquired both in trades! So instead, I ordered my vassals to research those techs.

It's for their own good, after all, even though they wouldn't have Rifling in time for the war.

I was also pretty generous in my tech trades with them, trying to beef up their research an economies.

I held back on Liberalism, though as I expected, it looks like Hammurabi will beat me to Communism for the free Great Spy. Not that it will do him much good.

I finished researching a key tech for the war:

I soon began building Cannon everywhere, but held off finishing them in anticipation of a switch to Theology for additional XPs on the last turn of the Golden Age.

To ensure the maximum effectiveness of Theology--which I expect to run for some time, possibly to the end of the game--I had spread my state religion to all my cities during the GA:

I was wondering before how Hammy was doing so well tech-wise, then I remembered that he owns this game's version of Mecca. Duh.

Another turn, another tech:

I was running Mercantilism, so the extra trade routes didn't help much.

With Corporation in hand, I set out after my next big military technology:

If I get there ahead of Peter, Infantry may be the main military advantage I need in a war against him. I'd love to have Artillery for that war as well, but they're a long way off--I'd have to research through Scientific Method, Physics, and Artillery--the first two being very expensive techs. Some Great Scientist may help there, but I still don't think they'll appear in time to make a huge difference. If the war drags on, they may see action.

On the last turn of the GA, I planned to change some civics. As I said above, I knew I was switching to Theology. I did not adopt Vassalage, preferring to run Bureaucracy and keep the diplomatic benefits with Peter and Hammurabi. But what about Mercantilism? Should I keep it or switch to Free Market, especially now that I had Corporation? The number of civs not running Mercantilism would be the deciding factor:

Not that many, and the biggest civ around, Russia, was still running with its borders closed to trade. I decided that the free specialists (especially all the free merchants) were of more benefit and stuck with Mercantilism.

My stack had been moved right next to Cheju, so it was time:

Attacking Cheju had big benefits. I gather it's a former Korean city. Surrounded as it was by Korean culture, De Gaulle had positioned a huge stack of units there to keep it out of revolt.

This meant I could deal a crushing blow to De Gaulle's military by capturing just one city. However, I did not quite have the numbers to do it on this turn. I watched in amazement as the city changed hands twice before I could do anything during the next turn. The Koreans captured the city, then the French took it back! Then it was my turn. Shaka fans will be happy to see that the Impis now celebrated one last hurrah:

There was a practical reason for this. I wanted to move all my units--several of them were wounded--into the city on this turn and not leave any outside, vulnerable to counter-attack on a tile with no defensive bonuses. (The only tile next to the city that offered that was the plains hill to the SW, but it was across a river, so forget it.) Mobile units like Impis and mounted offered me that option. However, with so many wounded units, I decided it was time to upgrade the two highly-promoted Impis in the stack to Riflemen, just to protect the city and the wounded. So their mobility promotion is now moot until and unless they become Mechanized Infantry. I'm not sure the game will go on that long--in fact, if it does, I think I'll have mis-managed things terribly.

I haven't given the city back to Wang Kon--he still doesn't have Rifles and I'd rather not see him lose it.

I kept an eye on Peter, of course. He remained "Friendly", but he's up to something:

IIRC, this statement means the AI is building up towards going to war with somebody. Peter actually has three possible targets: me, France, or Babylon. Hammy, it seems, broke away and became a free state.

Speaking of vassals...

Wow, that was quick! I hate to say it, but the Frenchman is living up to a certain stereotype, isn't he? Of course, a check of the power chart will reveal the reason for De Gaulle's sudden willingness to bend his knee:

So it looks like my attack on Cheju--as well as my aggressive defense of Thracian, where De Gaulle sent some Musketeers in a feeble counter-attack--deprived France of around 1/4 to 1/3 of its military. If he thinks Peter is planning to attack him--which I consider highly likely, and the AI may as well--then capitulating now makes sense. I mean, he's starting to look like a tempting target to Hammy now. And if the AI factors in the strength of my vassals as well, it's a no-brainer.

So obviously, the big question is, do I accept his capitulation? How likely is De Gaulle to be able to break away later on if I accept his capitulation at this point? Should I keep going and take a couple more French cities, or should I move on to the next opponent--probably Peter? And if we agree to go after Peter (I think it's inevitable), should I do so now or wait for a tech advantage (Infantry being the obvious one)?

 

[NintendoTogepi]

I definitely wouldn't accept it yet...I'd take a few more cities yet.

 

[patagonia]

If you want to wrap this one up quickly, capitulate De Gaulle now and move your SoD to within striking distance of Peter's core. It may be worth using a turn to revolt to Nationalism too, so you can mass draft rifles and win the game even faster. While he's still got decent production potential, De Gaulle will be much more use than if you use up time and units sacking his cities; time which will allow Peter to build up his army even more.

While you've still got OB with Russia, you should be able to use either Wang's isolated city, or part of France/Babylon as a suitable launch-pad to deal some serious damage to Peter early in the war.

 

[carl corey]

Yeah, accept DeGaulle as a vassal before he capitulates to anyone else and focus on your next target (Peter). This game should be wrapped up pretty fast now. Impressive job, Sisiutil!

 

[Jet]

I'd take the vassal now, give Cheju to Korea, move a large stack of Riflemen into Apache (and some into Philadelphia and certainly Chicago), and declare on Peter. Then switch to Nationhood. My intuition is that getting on with it will get you the highest score.

With France likely to lose some territory to Peter and you likely to gain territory from Peter, I don't think France is going to get to half your size and pop.

I was a little surprised at the existing buildings in your cities. Personally, if the AP is at large I build monasteries and temples before forges.

 

[Jet]

I have to admit I'm not sure where you'd get those large stacks of Riflemen. Maybe switch to Nationhood first.

 

[Fetch]

Sis-

You chose to stay in mercantilism, for the free specalist. How is that different than what you were getting with caste system?

 

[uppi]

I'd accept the capitulation, because:
- There isn't much to gain continuing the war. The game could be over before the French cities would be productive under your rule.
- The French military would be better used as a roadblock against Peter instead of cannon fodder for your army.
- If you continue the war, Peter might join and grab a chunk of the cities that then would have to be retaken.
- I wouldn't worry about de Gaulle breaking off. He won't gain much land, and he would have to lose much land for him breaking off. And even if he does, you can always redeclare and we have seen how long it takes for him to raise the French war flag (white eagle on white background)

For the war against Peter I would wait for infantry, as they would be a crucial advantage against his rifleman. Peter is a few techs away from a new unit for him (apart from maybe airships) so you should have the time for waiting.

 

[Kev]

Very interesting.

I wonder if Hammy could be choice for next target. He might capitulate as well as you tech toward infantry. It would surely be nice to have that Islam Holy City. It'd be fun to have the whole world go after Peter after all that, and if you get him to capitulate fairly quickly you would have a nice early win.

 

[Peachrocks]

I also think the idea of going after Hammy first if only for the holy city may be an idea, but I think its almost a certainty that Peter is declaring on France if you take him as a vassal and thus Peter will engage you and your 'friends'. Whether you want to worry about Pete or not I'll leave up to you.

Switching to Nationhood gives another benefit aside the draftable rifles/infantry, its De gaulles favourite civic meaning he'll like you sooner.

Should you wait for Infantry? I usually wait for the next tech advantage but I'm a cautious player but because this is Shaka, you should be more aggressive.

 

[Melon Head]

Wow, that is awesome news about De Gaulle. Take the capitulation asap! You're going for domination/conquest, so it really won't hurt you. Your border with him is small enough that in the unlikely case he breaks free he can't hurt you in time for your military to get back there, and you'll be getting railroads soon to accelerate any pacification forces. I think another key part of his willingness to vassalize is your other two vassals. I think the game adds their power to yours for other civs looking at you, so to him, you've got by far the highest power in the game. Either of Washington and Wang would put you above Peter, and both...you've become the runaway AI you always see.

Capitulating De Gaulle has another pair of advantages right now; you haven't razed many of his cities, so the diplomatic penalties for the war are still low and easy to overcome. Second, leaving him there means your border with Peter is tiny, giving you a much easier time when you DoW Peter. Being surrounded on all other sides by vassals will make defense much, much easier as you don't care too much if they lose territory to Peter.

Accept the capitulation. Build a couple of spies and send them into Peter's territory to look for his SoD's. If they look killable in your territory with your forces, (or even better, in his territory with your current forces) DoW him and try to lure them in. I'm not sure whether or not I'd wait for Assembly Line to advance; play it by ear. Trade techs to your vassals for cash for upgrades. The worry I have about waiting for AL is it gets there, and then you have factories to build, then coal plants, then pentagon, and that's a lot of downtime for military production.

 

[iamnleth]

I'd like to point out that, if you were to switch to free market, you'd only get trade route benefits with Hammurabi, who's territory is quite small, so you made the right decision in staying with mercantilism. You get foreign trade routes with your vassals, even in mercantilism.

I'm very afraid that De Gaulle may be able to break free. His territory is still very large. If peter directs his stack at you, De Gaulle may be able to capture a city or two, in which case you would be in danger of losing him.

 

[Sisiutil]

If you want to wrap this one up quickly, capitulate De Gaulle now and move your SoD to within striking distance of Peter's core. It may be worth using a turn to revolt to Nationalism too, so you can mass draft rifles and win the game even faster.

Switching to Nationhood gives another benefit aside the draftable rifles/infantry, its De gaulles favourite civic meaning he'll like you sooner.

Should you wait for Infantry? I usually wait for the next tech advantage but I'm a cautious player but because this is Shaka, you should be more aggressive.

If I'd known De Gaulle was going to capitulate so readily, I would have switched to Nationalism on the last turn of the Golden Age. Since I'll be attacking Peter soon, the diplo bonus for favourite civic doesn't really matter. As it is, I will probably make the switch very soon and start drafting Riflemen.

As I recall, I already have a tech advantage over Peter: Steel for Cannon. So I think I should move units into position and pull a Rummy, going to war with the army I have rather than the army I'd like to have. I'll probably tech to AL and Infantry in the midst of the conflict, and then be able to spring another advanced unit on Peter--probably right around the time he's teched to Steel himself. Bwa-ha-ha.

Getting Infantry would be great in another sense. I haven't upgraded any of my CR Macemen to Rifles yet, for the simple reason that the CR units often get targeted to defend when they're of the same variety as the other defenders. By stacking more mundane Combat-promoted Rifles with the previous generation CR units, I keep the latter safe. However, that means I often have to let the non-CR Rifles do the heavy lifting against the best city defenders, especially if I wasn't able to do enough collateral damage to them. However, a stack of promoted CR Rifles protected by upgraded, Combat-promoted Infantry is one of my favourite combinations: the Infantry provide excellent defense protection, while Rifles with CR promotions are quite sufficient to take out city defenders when combined with Cannon-based collateral damage attacks.

Sis-

You chose to stay in mercantilism, for the free specalist. How is that different than what you were getting with caste system?

Caste system just allows you to run as many artists, scientists, or merchants as you want; you still need the population and food to support them. Mercantilism gives you a specialists of any type in each city for free--regardless of population or food supply. CS + Rep + Mercantilism is a great combination for a SE; the only way it could be better is with Pacifism, but there's no way I'm going to run that civic when I'm about to start drafting like crazy!

 

[Daedal]

This looks like a great opportunity. I'd say accept DeGaulle's capitulation and move on with the conquest/domination. Besides the strategic points already mentioned, would Shaka really pass up this opportunity? I think not. There is no honor in beating a dead Frenchman.

Peter should be the next target. Once he's beat the game is won.