ALC Game 22: Arabs/Saladin

[Bandobras Took]

Well, fortunately we do have Marble, but we'll also need a 4th level unit. Unfortunately, Protectives 2 free promotions don't bring us any closer. We can go into Vassalage and gain 5 XP units, or add in Theocracy and gain 7 XP units, but without battle experience or a settled GG, the 10 XP for 4th level may take some time.

It might be useful to leave a controlled area for Barbarians to spawn and destroy themselves against Archers if all we want is a level 4 unit to unlock Heroic Epic for military production.

 

[Artichoker]

It might be useful to leave a controlled area for Barbarians to spawn and destroy themselves against Archers if all we want is a level 4 unit to unlock Heroic Epic for military production.

That's one possible option, but we also might want to settle a GG for the HE city.

With Spiritual, we can do the war/infrastructure civics toggle and gain 3+2+2 = 7 XP units for having Barracks+Vassalage+Theocracy. That's 3 XP until the next level gain...a bit too long for a lot of the units we'll be making.

Having 1 settled GG to make the XP count of the HE city 3+2+2+2=9 XP puts us only 1 XP away from the next level gain.

Earning a GG by fighting Barbarians might be possible, but I've never tried it before. Early warring is probably the easiest solution for popping a GG, besides gaining a level 4 unit.

Also, if we use the war/infrastructure civics toggle, during the infrastructure phase, our military units receive no XP bonus, but the HE city might still want to make military units. In this case, having a GG in the HE city produces 3+2= 5 XP units, just enough for 2nd level.

 

[Validator]

Earning a GG by fighting Barbarians might be possible, but I've never tried it before.

You don't gain any GG points from fighting barbs. So you need to fight another civ to get your first GG (unless you wait until Fascism).

 

[Artichoker]

You don't gain any GG points from fighting barbs. So you need to fight another civ to get your first GG (unless you wait until Fascism).

That's what I thought...

To clarify what I said in the last post, the "war/infrastructure" civics toggle is when you switch between Vassalage+Theocracy and Bureaucracy+Organized Religion back and forth. Meanwhile, your cities' production also switches between building military units and buildings, back and forth.

While you're in Bureaucracy+Organized Religion, your capital gains a whopping +75% towards buildings. Obviously, this is a great opportunity to build wonders.

While you're in Vassalage+Theocracy, your HE city (assuming 1 settled GG) will produce units with 9 XP.

 

[ace94d]

Changing vote from BW to Hunting---->Archery.

Still say to go Pigs/Crab/Wheat first, then the red Corn/Marble site.

 

[Scarredroman]

Great you founded an early religion and you took polytheism. That enables the Parthenon and a Great Artist to bulb Monarchy - that removes the hurdle to the Feudalism slingshot from The Oracle. That assumes you're able to survive a barb rush before you have archers and without walls. Longbow rush the French.

Provided you've got Mon and Meditation a GP will bulb Theology. How soon Liberlaism isthen the question. The tech path would appear to be - Hunting, Archery, BW, Priesthood(Oracle), Writing(UB Madrassa), Meditation, monotheism(Org relig), Aesthetics (SP), Literature (Great Library needs six libraries/cities). I'm expecting someone will trade sailing, masony and alphabet.

Someone chose Christianity from meditation - that's either Izzy or Justinian. I haven't looked at the save so I do not know who founded it. I'd like to think it was Justinian and that the Byzantines are the fourth and hopefully final civ on your continent.

 

[Sisiutil]

Here's my own dotmap, in which I tried to incorporate what I thought were the best suggestions of OTAKU, Validator, and Nares in their dotmaps (thanks everyone!), and the ideas from their and others' subsequent posts. I've also indicated, by numbers, the order/priority in which I think the sites should be settled.

Some notes on this:

• The amber site is unnumbered, mainly because I think Louis will beat me to it. If I really really want it, it may have to be city #2 (after the corn/sheep red city... or even before it). Would silver and two seafood resources be worth it?
• The incense is not claimed by any city until either the red, blue, or cyan cities achieve their 3rd border pops.
• The whales could be claimed by a later city at the very southern tip of that tundra peninsula. It wouldn't exist for any other reason than to claim the whales.
• Obviously this dotmap may need to be revised as the locations of copper and/or iron are revealed (or not)
• I'm thinking of the following specializations/national wonder locations:
  • Magenta (#6): GP Farm w/ National Epic
  • Blue (#7): Moai Statues
  • Yellow (#3): Military w/ Heroic Epic

 

[ParadigmShifter]

Great Library doesn't need 6 cities, that's Oxford. Great Lib just the one library.

 

[Munch]

[*]The amber site is unnumbered, mainly because I think Louis will beat me to it. If I really really want it, it may have to be city #2 (after the corn/sheep red city... or even before it). Would silver and two seafood resources be worth it?

It's definitely worth having. With the huge surplus food from fish+crab, the silver can be worked early to compensate for the economic drain of building so far away from the capital early on.

It also grabs you an early +2 from resources you'd otherwise wait a long time to settle for, and +1 not available anywhere else. I think it's actually a good site, and more worthy of Maoi statues than "Blue (#7)" I think: 11 water tiles here and 8 at the Blue site. Shame there's no stone around to accelerate Maoi though. If I'm without stone and get a Great Engineer with no world wonders to build I sometimes use him for Maoi, as the benefit can be instantly noticeable, and otherwise Maoi takes forever to build!

 

[Validator]

OTAKUjbski,

I don't want to make too much of a debate over the differences in our city sites, especially since there's not much that separates them, but sometimes a marginal advantage gained here and there can make a difference. So I'll just respond to a couple of points:

That's funny ... this is the opposite of the Silver city: my site's focused more on short term than long term potential. I also considered this placement for the Incense. If my Red Sheep/Corn city is settled, then my White is in a better position to pick it up with a border pop soon. In your placement, the Magenta city picks up Incense.

I don't know if I really see a short term benefit from your city site. The oasis will provide another positive food tile, but it doesn't seem that it will make much difference in the productivity of the city. Two farmed FPs plus the sheep pasture provide +8 . The oasis makes it +9. The additional won't support another specialist. And if you're thinking about using the excess food to support cottages then I think my site offers more cottageable terrain (even with one less food).

Also my city site has several quality tiles adjacent so it doesn't really need a border expansion. It can afford to wait for Islam to spread, regardless of how long it takes. Your site needs the border expansion, so you're either going to have to keep your fingers crossed and hope for quick Islam spread or whip a monument.

Although I think we agree that either site is going to be pretty mediocre so it shouldn't be a high priority.

Not necessarily. In my placement, I'm factoring in that Mecca is a very strict Commerce City maturing as many Cottages as it can in preparation for Bureaucracy. This means all of its hills are subject to overlap for usage in nearby cities.

Placing Dark Magenta (Wheat/Crab/Pig) on the hill has 5 'benefits' over settling 1E of that hill north of the Crab:

• Innate +1P from being settled on a Plains Hill.
• Still has a Plains Hill in its BFC: Mecca's Plains Hill -- which will be unworked by the Commerce-hungry Mecca the majority of the time.
• Shares 3 Riverside Grassland tiles with Mecca. While Mecca is working and maturing other Cottages, Dark Magenta can mature these three while still maintaining sufficient +Food for specialists.
• Less water; more Land. 1N of Crab has 2 extra Oceans & Coasts and a Peak at the expense of the overlap (see above) and a Grassland Forest.
• Lower distance maintenance. It's probably minor minor, but 1 tile closer here means 1 tile farther for another city (I'm thinking primarily of the "Forward Observer").

I'm not quite as willing as you to have the capital give up a high tile. I think city specialization is a bit over-rated (and judging from previous ALCs I would say Sisiutil puts even less emphasis on it than I do). I find the capital needs to be a workhorse city, which usually means being strong in , and . I don't know if the production of the two northern cities is going to be enough to handle all military needs. That could force Mecca into a secondary production city role in addition to being a commerce city. Keep in mind that Bureaucracy also provides a bonus to so the hill is effectively worth more hammers if it's worked by Mecca.

With that being said I think founding on the hill could be a good idea, depending on some decisions as to how to move forward. In addition to the points you made there is one other advantage that you didn't mention (at least not explicitly):

There seems to be widespread agreement that this map, as well as Saladin's UB and spiritual trait, makes an SE very attractive. Of course that makes Pyramids a very useful wonder. With no stone or Industrious bonus the only way to have a chance of getting it built is by massive chopping.

Looking at the map the only place there are lots of forests is SE of Mecca. Founding on the hill provides 10 forests in the fat cross (compared to only 6 by settling E of the hill). With several /turn from the city tile, Mecca's hill and the wheat this city could finish Pyramids in about 50 turns if all the forests are chopped in that time.

Louis might beat us to it, but maybe the presence of Marble in his territory will steer him towards Oracle and ToA. Of course there might be another Industrious civ out there, or a civ might get stone hooked up early. But it might be worth the risk. So if Sisiutil decides to try then founding on the hill is definitely the right choice.

 

[ace94d]

WHY is Magenta going to be your six city? It should, at the latest, be your THIRD city(After either Corneep or Cornble).

The reason for this is it gives a nice amount of instant gratification, with a nice long term investment, can change to fill in a position as a pinch AND has low maintanence costs.

Pros:

Can churn out the whip during pre-war buildup.
Can churn out GPs during peacetime. Possibly gives a MUCH earlier Great Prophet if settled second, letting you run 2 Priests + Medressa if we go to Priesthood.
It'll only cost 1 or 2 maintence at first. This means a nice, longer time at 90%/100% research. It will also pay for itself quickly by working the Clams.
Gives you workable Silks as soon as Calender is made, for commerce and happy.

Cons:

...Uh...I dunno. I GUESS you could backfill it...but then you lose out on so much short-term gain for so little long-term.

Also, again, I suggest moving it one to the right. Overlaps less with Mecca, in exchange for grabbing a BIT of ocean. Since it wouldn't be working Mecca's tiles anyway, it's like trading in desert or, since it MIGHT be worked sometimes, riverside tundra for Ocean. Still a profitable one. In addition, it gets Pigs in BFC w/o border expnasion.

The only problem is that you would need to move Blue #7 up one tile. Big whoop.

 

[OTAKUjbski]

I don't want to make too much of a debate over the differences in our city sites, especially since there's not much that separates them, but sometimes a marginal advantage gained here and there can make a difference.

I think we should throw down in the streets and incite rioting. No one questions my city placements ... NOBODY ... you must be off your noggin'!

Nah, I'm just messin' with ya; you're all right. (an ode to Flexo)

After looking closer at it, I prefer your Cyan over my White, and I'm glad S is going with your Cyan.

Points taken on all else (6 ... half-dozen ... all that stuff).


@Sisiutil:

Why settle the Cyan city 2nd? It looks like a good Settler/Worker pump and can work a few specialists later ... is that your goal with it?

I guess I'm just surprised it's priority over Yellow (#3) or Blue (#4). IDK

 

[Validator]

Here's my own dotmap, in which I tried to incorporate what I thought were the best suggestions of OTAKU, Validator, and Nares in their dotmaps (thanks everyone!), and the ideas from their and others' subsequent posts. I've also indicated, by numbers, the order/priority in which I think the sites should be settled.

The sites look fine, but I'm not sure of the order.

Given that Louis has already founded his second city and the AI normally founds a third city pretty quickly after its second I think you'll probably lose out on the Corn/Sheep border city if Louis decides to settle there next. If the third French city goes elsewhere you'll probably have some time before the fourth French city will be founded. So your red city doesn't need to be your second city, since if that site is available for your second city it will also be available for your third city.

Delaying it provides a little more time to research techs before your economy is killed by that city's distance maintenance. Hopefully that will give you time to start some cottages in Mecca.

I would settle the corn/marble city as your second city. Your cyan city is more centrally located but its really a marginal city site. Corn/marble will be your main production city so the sooner you get it going the better.

One other point to keep in mind here is the shape of the continent. Normally a Hemisphere 2-continent map will provide continents that stretch from the southern tundra/ice to the northern tundra/ice. In this case the eastern part of the continent barely reaches into the equatorial jungle region. So there's a lot of area to the north that could have some nice islands that can provide you with badly needed resources (maybe even ponies ). Getting a fishing boat out to explore the islands to the north should be a priority, and the corn/marble city provides that opportunity.

I agree with ace about moving the wheat/crab/pig city up in the order. I would make it your fourth city, right after corn/marble and corn/sheep. If corn/sheep isn't available I'd make it your third city. It's going to be your NE city so you want to get it going early. Also if you're willing to take a chance on Pyramids it provides 10 forests to chop.

After that I'd settle cities #2, 4, 5 and 7 on your dotmap.


On a different note I've rethought the issue of what tech to pursue next and I'm now thinking that BW is the best option.

First of all it does look like you'll have time to finish Hunting->archery in time if BW doesn't reveal a convenient source of copper. BW is 16 turns and Hunting + Archery will be about 13 turns. That finishes all of them around 1900BC which should be enough time (although barely) to get some archers ready by the time barbs start entering your territory.

The advantages of BW first:

• If copper is available you save roughly 13 turns of valuable research by not having to pursue hunting and archery now. That means pottery, writing, masonry(?), etc. get done 13 turns earlier.
• BW will finish a couple of turns after the settler finishes, so the location of copper will be known before the second city is settled. It will be possible to change course for the settler to get the copper if necessary.
• BW also provides for both chopping and whipping (without even losing a turn to anarchy thanks to Spiritual ). This will allow a second settler to be hurried instead of having to slow build it. This helps out even if copper isn't available since you will be able to build/whip/chop a barracks to have it finished at the same time archery finishes. That way you can start building archers immediately that will get either cover or shock as their first promotion.
• If copper happens to turn up in the capital's fat cross that's another high yield tile for it to work.

I know that there's a lot of talk about leveraging Protective. But if you're looking for optimal play you really should be thinking about what provides the best overall benefit for your empire.

I think we should throw down in the streets and incite rioting. No one questions my city placements ... NOBODY ... you must be off your noggin'!

Yeah. The first Civ city placement riot. Glad to be a part of it.

 

[Nuwan]

I'm wondering if it is better to skip the red [1] city and let Louis have it. Putting a city there will hurt in upkeep and it will a while before that city becomes economically useful. If you do skip the red city, then you should probably settle cities [2],[3] and [4] to safeguard your borders.
I think you should move the blue [7] city 1n. That way you can work 3 more sea tiles while the magenta [6] city will work all the tiles you leave behind.
It may be worthwhile placing the cyan city 1SW to get the oasis for early commerce and quicker/more certain access to incense. I dunno, depends to some degree on what happens with site [1].

 

[Calder]

You're lucky to have a good mix of happies with healtheries on this map. My last hemispheres map gave me no happies on my continent which was challenging to say the least, but ended up being my best played game.
Dot mapping, Pre-Bronze age I'm with Sis on nos 1 & 2 (though No. 1 needs priority.) With these 2 cities in place, and roaded, leads straight into Loui's front door! I wouldn't prioritise Marble, since Loui will have it ready and waiting for you at a later date (and hopefully a few wonders). My third city would be where 6 is, then giving you cow, corn, sheep, pig, wheat, and crab; plenty of early gained health bonuses, and later temples and silk for happies.
Would be nice to know where bronze is to at least deny Louis of this, but given you're early religion, hopefully he'll be sharing it with you in the not too distant future, giving him time to build wonders for you rather than DOW on you. So I'm for getting a few Archers up and ready first to give your warriors a break from defending against pillaging barbs, then seek the metals. Shame you missed the chance for early Pottery (after Poly) from getting the free Fishing Tech. Those cows can wait till at least 3 cottages and a mined plains hill are worked, helping towards quicker teching and settler/worker builds.

 

[Roxlimn]

I'm thinking of settling site 3 after site 1 to emphasize production for an eventual war with Louis. It also gives the AI an excuse to squander resources by establishing an easily razed outlier in site 2. If S sets up Mecca as a commerce center, I think it's best to just leave it mostly to its own devices.

 

[Sisiutil]

Okay, a revised dotmap based in your suggestions:

Cities 2 and 4 are a little up in the air because it depends what Louis does. My best option may be to just keep a couple of Warriors watching both areas and settle whichever site Louis doesn't.

 

[Nares]

Cities 2 and 4 are a little up in the air because it depends what Louis does. My best option may be to just keep a couple of Warriors watching both areas and settle whichever site Louis doesn't.

I don't think you'll be able to place those safely.

Cities 1, 6, 3 and 7 are your best sites. Site 5 seems like it might be reasonable in the short term, and I think it might be reasonable to settle it first, followed by site 6, then site 1, site 3, and site 7.

Site 5 probably runs farms on those Flood Plains.

If cultural pressure isn't an issue, I would think sites 5 and 3 should be settled first, followed by 7, 1 and 6.

What are people's thoughts on Sis's site 4 for Moai?

On the bright side, with this little food, we probably won't need Caste System for running specialists, unless we really want an artist in site 2. We didn't really need a early religion, either. The Madrassa really is great here. Four specialist slots in one early building, plus extra culture.

Hunting, Archery, Pottery, Bronze Working, Priesthood, Writing.

The tech path I had suggested initially was Agriculture, Mining, Hunting, Archery. Fishing here was free, so I excluded it. Modified for Animal Husbandry, it would be Agriculture, Mining, Hunting, Animal Husbandry, Archery, and we'd have 12 applied towards Bronze Working (more like 17, looks like Sis has a few into BW already).

Can anyone convince me that early improvement of the capital, combined with earlier expansion, is worth sacrificing for the early religion? Especially given that we don't need Temples to run priest specialists.

 

[ace94d]

IMO, a few more suggestions...

#4 should just wait until we go after Louis, unless it's still there when we're going for a sixth city. Then I'll say take it.

#5 becomes #4.

#6 becomes #5.

#4 becomes #6.

Also, leave anything you can around #2, #4 and the HORSE site.

If he goes after #2, from what I gather, he doesn't have a city by the horses. So he'll either plant his third city at the Horses, or #2. If he gets #2, we could actually takes the Horses if we want. And, if he settles the horses, then we'll know #2 is avalibile and can push to settle it.

 

[masterlefty]

If you want to leverage the marble for wonders, these are the ones that get a boost from marble: (All generate culture)

Wonder - GPP - Effect
Hermitage GA +100%
Heroic Epic GA +100% Miltary Production
Mauso of Maus GA +50% length Golden Age
Nationa Epic GA +100% birth rate
Great Library GS +2 Free Scientist
Hagia Sophia GE build improvements 50% faster
Oracle GP 1 Free Tech
Parthenon GA +50% birth rate in All cities
Sistine Chapel GA +2 /specalist in All cities and +5 from all state buildings
TajMahal GA Starts a Golden Age
Artemis GM +100% yield and +1 free priest
Versailles GM reduced maintenance in nearby cities​

K