ALC Game 22: Arabs/Saladin

[Roxlimn]

The relative lack of excellent production sites makes me think that the Wat might be worth shooting for here, despite the lack of Stone and Industrious. 2 hammer Priests can be useful for converting food-rich sites into hammer-rich sites with Specialists.

 

[Bleys]

Popping Fishing in the hut actually does help a bit, makes Pottery cheaper. With all that food, I would consider getting some cottages down. You may be looking at a hybrid here, since beating Louis to the Mids without stone is going to cost you a TON of time and forests, he loves to build them. Theres still a good chance you can just take them from him once you decide to go on Jihad, which would allow a Rep switch long before Constitution. Still, HR is going to be your friend, and you need Monarchy before you can bulb a Prophet for Theocracy anyway.

Lots of possibilities here, the map is pretty sweet. You should be able to settle comfortably, I agree with avoiding any cultural pressure on Louis' cities before you are actually in a position to take them. Once you have some military, you can drop a city closer to him to "stage" from, and have some culture to gobble up the tiles that get vacated when you conquer his cities.

 

[oyzar]

The pigs/wheat/crab city is probably the best spot for main GP farm and as such should not be dilluted by beeing split up... In the early game it is pretty good at spamming settlers and workers too.

 

[Artichoker]

Copper is still pretty rare, and if not in the capital's BFC you would still need a settler and the time to mine the tile (not to mention if that city needs to be placed in a spot where a culture-bump is necessary) in order to benefit from copper's increased production.

We can probably get hunting/archery then to BW while building a worker/archer - or two - and settler, and by the time the settler pops we would know the copper situation. We can still mine unforested hills for extra production right now.

Not saying delay BW any longer than hunt/arch - just good to be able to build resource-less units with great free promotions early to hedge against barbs and to be key city/improvement defenders and settler escorts.

I hear you...but some arguments for BW would be these:

1) We can get an early step on Writing (for Madrassa) by skipping Hunting/Archery temporarily.

2) A Warrior, despite being weaker than an Archer, still costs fewer Hammers...so you can build more of them.

 

[Scaphism]

I'll throw my vote in for Hunting Archery as well. Your workers have a lot of other things they can do besides hooking up copper, and unless you build a road to your expansion, your new city won't be able to build any axes either.

I also support going for the sheep-corn tile to your west. You can improve both of the resources there and it will be a good city to help get out additional settlers and workers from.

The big decision after that (in my eyes) is whether you go for Bronze or Pottery next.

I'm a big fan of the Red and Green (Validator's dotmap) cities to your north. They look like the most productive and food rich spots to me. Cottage in your capital, farms and mines up there and you should still be able to run priests/scientists.

 

[RobertTheBruce]

I would suggest the green city (wheat and floodplains) next. Louis isn’t going to expand east of the desert and you can’t really expand west. The second border pop will come quickly with a holy city so archers shouldn’t be needed for barbarians. A few warriors on hills can fog bust the desert and the north until a border pop of the second city. Louis can handle the other side of the desert.

Early commerce is going to be a big problem; the green site is close and already linked by the river. The gp farm site has two silk but the rest of your early commerce will have to come from cottages and a holy city. Green is close and can run two priests with the floodplains cottaged. It can become a production center later when you are ready for a medieval war. Your cities will be small and even calendar only adds one happy (two with the incense if you get it). Louis looks to have many of the same resources so you can’t count on resource trades.

I would suggest BW- (Archery if no copper)-Pottery-Writing-Priesthood-Monarchy. (I’m not sure if the AI will prioritize Alphabet enough that you can trade Monarchy for it and filler techs.) You don’t have much jungle to chop so IW isn’t necessary if you have copper and you are going to need a happiness boosting civic quickly. You can chop a Madrassa in the second city to run priests for a great priest and hope Islam spreads for a relation and commerce boost.

Unfortunately, your needs (Writing and Alphabet, Priesthood and Monarchy, Theology, military) are pulling you all over the tech tree.

 

[Nuwan]

I like settling Otaku's White, Yellow and Blue cities to establish a western boundary, probably in that order. You are not blocking Louis in much, but you will not also not hurt the economy by having far away cities.
I'd tech hunting/archery to get some barb defenses and then go for sailing to set up trade routes between our cities and possibly Louis too. Pick up pottery next for cottaging (don't like SE without pyramids) and then get Masonry, Bronze working, Priesthood and Writing in some order. Try to get the ToA in capital, and then tech to literature/GL.
Middle game options would be to go for Drama/Music, Sistine Chapel for cultural victory or go to war against Louis.

 

[Sisiutil]

I hear several of you on the Agriculture vs. Hunting thing--yes, the latter would have been a better tech to lead into Animal Husbandry. My bad. I don't usually play as a Protective leader in my off-line games, so I think I just fell back on my usual habits there.

I think Hunting-Archery is now essential. As several of you have pointed out, even if there is copper nearby, if it's not in Mecca's (admittedly large) cultural territory, it's going to take too long to hook it up. Besides, this is an ALC, so I should be leveraging the leader traits--in this case, Protective. But I agree, after Archery, the next tech should be BW. After that, I think Pottery and Writing make sense to get some cottages around the capital going and then get the UB in place.

Unless someone else beats me to it, I'll probably create a hybrid of Validator's and OTAKU's dotmaps, along with Validator's suggested revisions of both (and some of the other comments as well).

If copper is available, I may try axe-rushing Louis, but we'll see; Creative leads to some high early cultural defenses, so it may have to wait. Besides, as several of you pointed out, it might be better to let the Frenchman build some wonders first.

 

[sveint]

Since you are about to play Immortal: Archery is overdue

 

[madscientist]

I am always a fan of the early axe-rush. However, to reinforce what you just said, he's creative and industrious, plus he's not on your doorstep (yet) and he wonderspams so he's not putting all his efforts into settler production. Wait until catapults at least, preferably until the UU.

Alternatively, if you can corner a few religions you can go for a cultural win. It may not showcase the UU much, but it would be nice to see the ALC's get one of those other victory types once in awhile.

 

[Artichoker]

We should be thinking HE.

Since this requires a 4th level unit, it's in our best interests to do some early warring.

Perhaps divide the upcoming war into two phases: 1) pre-HE phase, and 2) post-HE phase.

Then use the post-HE phase to clean the entire continent.

 

[OTAKUjbski]

Your site for the silver city will provide a bit more food, but it also requires somewhat higher population to get there.
...
Which site is better? I'm not really sure.

Neither are: it's 6 one way and a half-dozen the other. I think it depends on when it's settled. If early, then I'd go with yours hands down (in fact, that's where mine was at first). But, if it's later when there's more time to spare [and Louis isn't? in the picture], then I'd go with the lakeside placement. (The higher population is actually my goal ... better trade routes and all.)

Your city site in the center (white) seems to be located where it is to get an oasis tile, but at the expense of adding a number of low quality tiles into the fat cross. I'm not a big fan of oasis tiles since they can't be improved. I'd rather go for more tiles that have medium to long term potential.

That's funny ... this is the opposite of the Silver city: my site's focused more on short term than long term potential. I also considered this placement for the Incense. If my Red Sheep/Corn city is settled, then my White is in a better position to pick it up with a border pop soon. In your placement, the Magenta city picks up Incense.

Your city site to the SE of Mecca is on the only hill in the area (although it is a plains hill). I would rather settle next to the hill so it can be mined to provide some production. Your site would have to whip any buildings constructed there.

Not necessarily. In my placement, I'm factoring in that Mecca is a very strict Commerce City maturing as many Cottages as it can in preparation for Bureaucracy. This means all of its hills are subject to overlap for usage in nearby cities.

Placing Dark Magenta (Wheat/Crab/Pig) on the hill has 5 'benefits' over settling 1E of that hill north of the Crab:

• Innate +1P from being settled on a Plains Hill.
• Still has a Plains Hill in its BFC: Mecca's Plains Hill -- which will be unworked by the Commerce-hungry Mecca the majority of the time.
• Shares 3 Riverside Grassland tiles with Mecca. While Mecca is working and maturing other Cottages, Dark Magenta can mature these three while still maintaining sufficient +Food for specialists.
• Less water; more Land. 1N of Crab has 2 extra Oceans & Coasts and a Peak at the expense of the overlap (see above) and a Grassland Forest.
• Lower distance maintenance. It's probably minor minor, but 1 tile closer here means 1 tile farther for another city (I'm thinking primarily of the "Forward Observer").

Again it seems that the main reason for your red city's location is that it grabs the oasis tile, again at the cost of bringing a lot of low value tiles into the fat cross. I strongly considered putting the city SE of the lake to gain the fresh water, but figured that given the number of health resources that fresh water wasn't worth getting the low quality tiles in the north. My city site would also grab the incense with its second border expansion.
...
When it comes time for war this city will also provide a good launching point for attacking France.

Yes and no. Thinking this city would be settled very early, I just wanted it to get out the way of Paris' culture, which I find easier when offset instead of in line. I now believe that city should indeed be 1 SE of the fresh water lake. It can work its resources immediately, is still out of the way of Paris' culture and has fewer junk tiles.

Ditto on the launching point. Wherever the Sheep/Corn "Forward Observer" city is placed, it has very high strategic value ... I might even rank it as #2 on the Settle list (behind the coastal Corn/Marble).

--------

I find it strange I'm voting for Archery so early in two games in a row, but I really think that's the best plan here.

We have little quality land, so we should probably get what we can while the getting's good. Archers are cheaper and resourceless.

Let's leverage Protective's Archers into a REX. Between Mecca (Cottages) and Dark Magenta (Cottages & Specialists), the economy can support it.

Especially if the case of the Red (Validator's Magenta) Sheep/Corn "Forward Observer" city, running a road all the way out there is going to be murder. Keep the Workers at home building Cottages and Mines.

I think the best settling order is: Yellow (Validator's Red) > Red (Validator's Magenta) > Dark Magenta (Wheat/Crabs/Pig) > Cyan (Validator's Green) > Blue > White (Validator's Cyan).

1. Yellow has plenty of Green Hills it can mine for quick early production. This city will pick up the Archer/Settler/Worker production as Mecca moves over to a Cottage-Spammer. Also coastal for whatever naval needs may arise.
   
2. Red is a staging point (and scouting point) against Louis and cannon fodder in case of declaration. Lots of Forests = easy Monument/Library and lots of quick Archers.
   
3. Dark Magenta has great food and the ability to work Riverside Cottages for Mecca. Vital for getting the first few Great People.
   
4. Cyan has great production and will pick up one of Mecca's Plains Hills as it converts to a Cottage-Spammer. By the time it's settled, most of its tiles will already be improved (thanks to Mecca's borders) and will come online very fast. Being settled on a Plains Hill also helps expedite that process.
   
5. Blue and Green both have good Specialist potential and should come online fairly quickly because of that. Political tensions and economic stability will determine the validity of either city, though Blue (Sheep/Fish/Silk) will be hard to deny.
   
6. White is a 'meh' city on both maps. It has its high points and its low points. I rank it as 'backfill'.

-- my last 2 for a while.

 

[Nares]

The relative lack of excellent production sites makes me think that the Wat might be worth shooting for here, despite the lack of Stone and Industrious. 2 hammer Priests can be useful for converting food-rich sites into hammer-rich sites with Specialists.

There are some good production sites. I wish I could have loaded my dotmap.

We have three Plains Hills and five Flood Plains in Mecca. We can run one Plains Hill from the city. A second Plains Hill can be run by working two Flood Plain Cottages. That's already five population (two Cottages, two Plains Hills, and the Cows). We can work an additional Plains Hill at cap 7 or 8. Eight would incorporate two more Cottaged Flood Plains. Seven involves just one Farmed Flood Plains.

About the Madrassa. It allows for four specialists total, correct? Two priests, and two scientists. Or is it two total?

 

[Roxlimn]

It allows for 4. Yes, you can leverage that into generating twice the GPP you would otherwise be able to get, if you like running Specs, have the food to do it, and don't mind diluted GPP Pools.

Note "relative."

 

[Bandobras Took]

We should be thinking HE.

Forgive me ignorance: why should we be thinking HE?

 

[Nares]

 

[kazapp]

Those of you advocating researching Bronze Working - are you aware we're at Emperor difficulty?

It would be a huge risk, especially given the open landscape. What's the use of chopping if you're swarmed by barbs? Was it the Mehmet game they almost got Sisiutil?

I would vote for Archery regardless (we've already "wasted" enough time with Polytheism and AH) but now that we're Protective it seems the obvious choice.

Otherwise the game looks interesting. For once, Sisutil's been given one of those resource-poor maps I always seem to get...

 

[Artichoker]

Forgive me ignorance: why should we be thinking HE?

I meant we should be looking ahead, basically.

So far, Sisiutil's side of the map is strong on Food resources, but mediocre (and maybe below average) on other types of resources. This provides the incentive for military expansion.

The question is, how to accomplish it? The HE is a key wonder built in almost every game, and its creation can come pretty early in the game, depending on how fast you get the required tech, and whether you have Marble. Having the HE built early allows you to gain more use from it and prepare for the time that you make your biggest military expansions.

Well, fortunately we do have Marble, but we'll also need a 4th level unit. Unfortunately, Protectives 2 free promotions don't bring us any closer. We can go into Vassalage and gain 5 XP units, or add in Theocracy and gain 7 XP units, but without battle experience or a settled GG, the 10 XP for 4th level may take some time.

 

[OTAKUjbski]

It allows for 4. Yes, you can leverage that into generating twice the GPP you would otherwise be able to get, if you like running Specs, have the food to do it, and don't mind diluted GPP Pools.

It's worth mentioning the Madrassa also has a built-in "Creative" bonus of +2 (for a total of 4) -- which makes it great against Creative neighbors like Louis.

@Nares:

You could assume I'd say this just looking at my dotmap, but I completely disagree with those two northern cities on your dotmap.

Aside from the fact one of those cities only has 32 base and will need to be almost entirely Farmland later, both need a border pop to begin doing anything.

In Validator's and my dotmaps, the northern cities have resources in their BFC and enough good tiles within their initial borders to immediately come online and start working towards some goal.

It's also worth noting our Corn/Marble city is coastal, which we'll undoubtedly need sometime down the line.

 

[slaze]

Saladin's a drafter. Hug the food.