ALC Game 22: Arabs/Saladin

[slaze]

Then you'll want cottages in preparation for bureaucracy.

Due to the ease we have in switching civics I wouldn't doubt we'll be in Bureaucracy at some point, but I wouldn't rule out Vassalage just yet either. Hereditary Rule and Vassalage support a very profitable expansion on river tiles - each commerce gained is even more profitable the last as long as its unit support is free.

I anticipate us filling out our land with settlers/workers, with our capitol doing most of the heavy lifting, using farms/mines to make these units. This kind of capitol, a farmed, rivered capitol, is a Vassalage capitol, at least until you hit health and cottage down the farms. But balanced with the rivered and or commercial cites, this start needs to go through HR-Vassalage before anything. Once the other cities get to 8-10 slavery isn't worth what it was and you can run serfdom with even OR for cities not building units.

I'll shy away from all the Federalists with their Bureaucracy talk. I'm thinking we gotta play this one more like a confederacy with Vassalage and HR.

My experience is that the earlier you get economics/corporation the better

The death of the castle-based EE is Assembly Line. That's the first post-Economics tech you can't handle in the field.

stealing techs via espionage really isn't feasible nor desirable, and ever after it isn't that easy to accomplish.

If have the holy city bonus it can become desireable pretty quick. Think of it as bonus that puts 40% multiplier buildings in all cities instantly.

the best way to continually utilize espionage for stealing techs is to build the Great Wall, settle the Great Spy (3 beakers, 12 eps) and start focusing eps towards which ever AI has a tech your interested in. The next Great Spy gets scotland yard...

The best way is to infiltrate, as this greatly increases you spent espionage ratio, making performing espionage significantly cheaper. Spend enough espionage and the religious bonus gets you techs at one-third cost(this allows for an extremely expanded empire!)

However, the madrassa points in a different direction regarding great people, so we may not get the choice at all.

Castles are still not very hot as they expire with economics, however it makes UoS and SM cheaper...

There seems to be a choice to make in going science or espionage, with the UoS leading us down the science path.

However, if you get both temples and monastaries, things multiply quite nicely. Pre-existing madrassa's take them to 5 which is the perfect number to be multiplied as each pre-req would increase it by a whole number. In this way you could put all your commerce in espionage and still have a small but very efficient science component to your overall research.

 

[OTAKUjbski]

Although in this case there's already discussion of the mid-game before the warrior has even moved. At this rate we'll have played out the entire game by the end of the first round.

We're playing a hypothetical shadow game, lol.

I think ALC's are like this now because it's the one place we can consistently be off-topic while actually still remaining on-topic.

 

[madscientist]

Slaze, you are correct about Assembly line however you do need economics and corporation before you can tech it which part of my point as well as the trade routes.

Regarding infiltrate vs. Settling, I have tried both and find settling much more useful throughout the game. Infiltrate get's you eps versus one AI, while settling get's you beakers as well as the ability to distribute eps to the appropriate AI over the corse of the game. Of course Infiltrate is useful if you want alot of techs fast and plan to steamroll during the early game, then having the option to steal Biology later is irrelevant.

But it's a moot point, as you said the Madrassa indicates a non-espionage route.

 

[CivCorpse]

OK, in that case...for the ALC after the saladin game, I vote settling 1SW....LOL, why wait for a map?

 

[NintendoTogepi]

OK, in that case...for the ALC after the saladin game, I vote settling 1SW....LOL, why wait for a map?

1N is far better though, you get a cow and a rice in the BFC! You also get a desert tile, but I think it's worth it.

 

[tempuraki]

so is settling on plains hill not hip anymore? I vote for settling 2N!

 

[Nares]

Of course Infiltrate is useful if you want alot of techs fast and plan to steamroll during the early game, then having the option to steal Biology later is irrelevant.

Well, the hypothetical I started all this from was a 3-civ continent in which we want (or need) to clear one civ, leaving us with a non-trading partner.

I was looking more for what individual techs might players consider grabbing shortly after they research Engineering. It's part of a broader analysis of espionage and its compatibility with the Protective trait. I focus on stealing just 1-2 techs from a single AI to help keep parity while researching towards Optics/Astronomy.

My understanding is that Castles are a espionage modifier. So you need base espionage points. Sources of EP seem a bit sparse, outside of running spies in a EE. As was pointed out, the Madrassa directs us away from running spies. In this game, we'll be running priests and scientists, which means no spies and no Great Spies.

As I noted, Castles are an EP modifier. From what I understand, espionage points are directed against a target or targets. You open up espionage options (including formerly baseline information) first by having more EP against your target than they have against you, then by spending EP on the mission cost.

If this is the case, Castles provide a tangible benefit only when you have Castles up and your opponent does not. This is where I'd like to see the cheap Castles come into play.

Presumably, we have the holy city factor, which will already reduce the cost of the mission (someone said 40% here, I've read 25%). We can have a narrow window in which to tech Engineering and build our cheap Castles. As it is, we'll research Engineering's requisites; Construction for Catapults and Machinery to access Guilds. We're hoping our enemy avoids Engineering as is, I presume, so that we can abuse our UU even further.

From what I've been reading in this thread, we would need a Great Spy, or multiple spy specialists (probably leading to a Great Spy), in order to steal a tech, even with our holy city cost reduction and increased EP generation through cheap Castles (which admittedly isn't much of a boost; +25% of low is still low).

Is tech theft really that restricted, such that you need to devote yourself fully to it to use it at all? We're talking 1-2 techs, possibly even techs we're simply trying to backfill but didn't before killing the third civ on our continent.

And while we have plans for our Great People, I think we may have very limited room to run spies in, so claiming zero spy specialists at all is a bit of a misnomer. Just not enough to pop a Great Spy, or otherwise affect our GPP in any of the few cities we want producing Great People.

 

[CivCorpse]

1N is far better though, you get a cow and a rice in the BFC! You also get a desert tile, but I think it's worth it.

True but 1N gives up the desert hill that may have uranium in it 500 turns from now. You have to plan ahead rookie!!!

 

[CivCorpse]

As for the saladin game. I vote we wander the settler around until a bear eats him. Then move on to Lincoln. I really hate Sal.

 

[Nares]

Does this map follow the typical continents conventions with regards to terrain layout?

We're in the northern hemisphere, in the desert band. This puts jungle to our south. Grassland to our east leaves me thinking we'll find water to the east/northeast.

Would anyone else care to offer any other insights? Which river looks "placed" by the map generator to enhance our starting position? Is the grassland in anyway indicative of the conclusion I made in regards to finding water? What level of desert could we possibly be looking at to the west? Any guess as to how far from the northern tundra we are?

 

[slaze]

Sources of EP seem a bit sparse, outside of running spies in a EE.

You run the slider, putting your commerce into espionage. The techs are cheaper than commerce into science. It's tricky cause you have to abandon science and your not sure how much techs will cost in espionage until you do the first one, but it comes out to a better deal. And you can switch it on and off, just by moving the slider. It may be perfectly reasonable late game to climb through the tech tree by teching this, stealing that, teching this, etc., depending on the techs and who has them.

 

[madscientist]

The problem with relying on the slider for espionage is that you are playing from a position of weakness then. Sure the techs are cheaper overall, but spy missiona fail, spies cost money, spies get caught for negative diplomacy and the biggest reason is that teh AI techs faster than you. As far as you can tech somewhat normally I like espionage, but it's no substitute for teching the old way via commerce or specialists.

Now regarding this ALC at the start, I sort of like Civcorpses idea of letting the settler wander arround. I suggest we setup a pool on the year the settler get's eaten. Sis is very good, I have my bid at 2500BC.

 

[DutchJob]

we are writing about espionage while we haven't even founded our first city!

focus please. found Mecca on site.

 

[CivCorpse]

Now regarding this ALC at the start, I sort of like Civcorpses idea of letting the settler wander arround. I suggest we setup a pool on the year the settler get's eaten. Sis is very good, I have my bid at 2500BC.

Not a chance. wolves move 2 squares at a time. He is gobbled no later than 2750 B.C. Though if it were me playing, an AI warrior would pop a hostile hut right next to my settler in 3600 B.C. But we could make the game more fun if he gets to travel with the warrior. Might survive until the barb swarms start. Who ever guesses the year he gets whacked wins the right to pick the starting location for the next ALC. LOL, better hope it isn't me, or I will settle you one tile from the coast just to be a wanker. even if I have to walk 25 turns to get there.

 

[slaze]

The problem with relying on the slider for espionage is that you are playing from a position of weakness then. Sure the techs are cheaper overall, but spy missiona fail, spies cost money, spies get caught for negative diplomacy and the biggest reason is that teh AI techs faster than you. .

Not true. It's a more efficient use of commerce, allowing more commerce to be spent on a larger, more powerful empire. You just have to accept that your not in the lead for tech, although you can steal a tech the exact same turn they ressearch it, putting you even. And a failed mission does not cost EP. Yes you need production to build the spies (you may want like 20!) but a larger empire is much more capable of fullfilling these tasks.

 

[Polobo]

we are writing about espionage while we haven't even founded our first city!

focus please. found Mecca on site.

Everyone lost their focus after they pretty much overwhelming agreed to settle in place and move the warrior NW to the hill....

I agree the espionage conversation is somewhat early but discussing how espionage would factor into a Saladin game really isn't really off-topic, just premature.

If we are going to get lots of great scientists, build academies, then run espionage for a good long while those academies are being wasted and probably would have better served bulbing. Whether this first GP comes during the first turn-set depends on how ambitious Sisutil gets - although from the last ALC we may end up discussing where the warrior moves after he gets onto the hill

 

[vicawoo]

Animals don't appear until all cities are settled.

 

[slaze]

If we are going to get lots of great scientists, build academies, then run espionage for a good long while those academies are being wasted and probably would have better served bulbing.

we should bulb Paper for the Sankore

 

[r_rolo1]

6 pages so far... and we aren't even discussing the settiling place . Cruising for a record.....

 

[Nares]

6 pages so far... and we aren't even discussing the settiling place . Cruising for a record.....

Maybe someone would move the warrior 1NW and post an updated screenshot so that we can argue against settling in place.